It is currently Sat May 18, 2013 10:41 pm


All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 97 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: 2300AD is Back!
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2012 6:41 pm 
Site Admin

Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2003 4:25 pm
Posts: 12300
Tarkin wrote:
What's the new ETA for French Arm Adventures?


On my desk to get through now - you will likely see Tools for Frontier Living first, though. We'll see how it goes, but expect either or both before Gen Con.

_________________
Matthew Sprange

Mongoose Publishing
http://www.mongoosepublishing.com


Top
Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 2300AD is Back!
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2012 6:52 pm 
Stoat

Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2006 9:47 pm
Posts: 79
Location: Farnham UK
Greetings

Is there an intention to create an errata sheet? Currently in my read through I've mainly come across editing irritations (many of which are mentioned in the errata thread).

Regards

_________________
Edward


Top
Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 2300AD is Back!
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 8:45 pm 
Stoat

Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2005 10:36 pm
Posts: 62
Location: Cleveland, OH
kustenjaeger wrote:
Is there an intention to create an errata sheet? Currently in my read through I've mainly come across editing irritations (many of which are mentioned in the errata thread).


If I can add to this question, had there been a second printing of the 2300 core book (or PDF) that has been updated, since initial release, based on the errata?

_________________
--
Robert -- Cleveland, OH


Top
Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 2300AD is Back!
PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 10:49 am 
Duck-Billed Mongoose

Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2009 9:58 pm
Posts: 1658
Location: United Kingdom
Finally made the time for a complete read through.

Outstanding job.


I have a vague memory of this having be mentioned some where before but cannot find it. I have been taking a close look at ship designs and trade and the like.

Crewing levels seem a bit, erm, over staffed for the small smaller ships. 10 or so crew for a 100Dton scout or 200Dton trader. I am presuming that for your smaller player type ships and anything on the frontiers you need those positions filled rather than the chairs filled.

So a Pilot who can navigate covers two roles, a navigator who can do sensors and comms can cover those roles and you can shrink the bridge crew down to half the number.


An odd question and I suspect it comes from the first rules but why is it so much more expensive to haul cargo than passengers.

The entry for transporting says in the column labelled Cost per Light Year Lv100 for middle passengers, Lv500 for high passengers and for cargo it says 750/Dton.

For a standard stateroom doing a maximum run that’s One high passenger Lv3850, two shared middle passengers at Lv770 each or Lv1540 for a double occupied stateroom. So since a cabin is 4Dtons that is a high passenger bringing in almost Lv1000 per Dton, middle passengers bringing in les than Lv400 per Dton but cargo for the same run brining in 5775 per Dton.

If the cargo cost is per trip regardless of distance then high passage and cargo are just about the same when you factor in the cost of life support and stewards etc. If that is per Ly then cargo is grossly expensive compared to people which is very odd considering the Life support costs and size requirements of carrying people.

The same odd costs can be seen on the Interface costs chart. Traveller is based around Dtons not mass tons. It doesn’t matter that four dtons of cargo is hundreds of times heavier than a single high passenger. They both take up the same volume on a ship.

So we have an odd situation where it seems to be vastly cheaper to ship people than cargo despite the fact that they take up the same space in a volume based design system.

_________________
Traveller: Nonsense, those rumours about me and crashes, no truth in them at all. I never had a landing I didn't walk away from!

ACTA-SF: Who are we, GORN. What do we want, Cruisers that can turn.... Wait, OK Escorts... Wait. I'll get back to you !


Top
Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 2300AD is Back!
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 5:40 am 
Stoat

Joined: Mon May 30, 2011 2:02 pm
Posts: 51
Captain Jonah wrote:
Crewing levels seem a bit, erm, over staffed for the small smaller ships. 10 or so crew for a 100Dton scout or 200Dton trader. I am presuming that for your smaller player type ships and anything on the frontiers you need those positions filled rather than the chairs filled.

So a Pilot who can navigate covers two roles, a navigator who can do sensors and comms can cover those roles and you can shrink the bridge crew down to half the number.


Keep in mind that the staffing levels for bridge crew are for multiple shifts (page 205). I imagine it's "regulation" to have the extra crew. The Thorez class courier has a full crew of 12 bridge crew, but there are only 5 bridge stations on the deck plan. I'd say it's not inconceivable that you could run the ship with only 2 crew (pilot / navigator and sensors / comms / engineer), although if things get busy (such as landing or docking) I'd say there should be a negative DM for multitasking. I'm sure it would be breaking some regulation if there's something analogous to the FAA at the local starport.


Top
Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 2300AD is Back!
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 6:04 am 
Cosmic Mongoose

Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2008 11:57 pm
Posts: 2640
Strithe wrote:
I'm sure it would be breaking some regulation if there's something analogous to the FAA at the local starport.


Interstellar Space Authority?


Top
Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 2300AD is Back!
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 9:06 am 
Duck-Billed Mongoose

Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2009 9:58 pm
Posts: 1658
Location: United Kingdom
Strithe wrote:
Captain Jonah wrote:
Crewing levels seem a bit, erm, over staffed for the small smaller ships. 10 or so crew for a 100Dton scout or 200Dton trader. I am presuming that for your smaller player type ships and anything on the frontiers you need those positions filled rather than the chairs filled.

So a Pilot who can navigate covers two roles, a navigator who can do sensors and comms can cover those roles and you can shrink the bridge crew down to half the number.


Keep in mind that the staffing levels for bridge crew are for multiple shifts (page 205). I imagine it's "regulation" to have the extra crew. The Thorez class courier has a full crew of 12 bridge crew, but there are only 5 bridge stations on the deck plan. I'd say it's not inconceivable that you could run the ship with only 2 crew (pilot / navigator and sensors / comms / engineer), although if things get busy (such as landing or docking) I'd say there should be a negative DM for multitasking. I'm sure it would be breaking some regulation if there's something analogous to the FAA at the local starport.


Which is sort of my point. A non comercial ship (so a traveller ship or one that stays in the frontier to avoid all those annoying rules) needs a main shift bridge crew of 7, two other bridge shifts of 2 each, three engineers for the power plant (page 206), a Steward for up to 10 passengers (though it doesn't say you need a steward so one can cover the crew and a few passengers). The Thorez doesn't have turrets but would need another one or two gunners as well if it were armed. So that is a 200Dton ship, roughly a Far trader but needing 15+ crew.

A 100Dton scout would have the same crew requirements, a 1000Dton ship would have the same crew requirements. Heck the Anjou 2000Dton cargo hauler has a crew of 21 of which 4 are cargo handlers so the ships crew is 17.

I see the situation where Core world ships have these huge crews but as soon as you enter the “Arms” and the frontiers it’s a case of sod the rules and have just as many crew as you need to handle to systems.

_________________
Traveller: Nonsense, those rumours about me and crashes, no truth in them at all. I never had a landing I didn't walk away from!

ACTA-SF: Who are we, GORN. What do we want, Cruisers that can turn.... Wait, OK Escorts... Wait. I'll get back to you !


Top
Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 2300AD is Back!
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 2:50 pm 
Stoat

Joined: Mon May 30, 2011 2:02 pm
Posts: 51
Captain Jonah wrote:
Strithe wrote:
Captain Jonah wrote:
Crewing levels seem a bit, erm, over staffed for the small smaller ships. 10 or so crew for a 100Dton scout or 200Dton trader. I am presuming that for your smaller player type ships and anything on the frontiers you need those positions filled rather than the chairs filled.

So a Pilot who can navigate covers two roles, a navigator who can do sensors and comms can cover those roles and you can shrink the bridge crew down to half the number.


Keep in mind that the staffing levels for bridge crew are for multiple shifts (page 205). I imagine it's "regulation" to have the extra crew. The Thorez class courier has a full crew of 12 bridge crew, but there are only 5 bridge stations on the deck plan. I'd say it's not inconceivable that you could run the ship with only 2 crew (pilot / navigator and sensors / comms / engineer), although if things get busy (such as landing or docking) I'd say there should be a negative DM for multitasking. I'm sure it would be breaking some regulation if there's something analogous to the FAA at the local starport.


Which is sort of my point. A non comercial ship (so a traveller ship or one that stays in the frontier to avoid all those annoying rules) needs a main shift bridge crew of 7, two other bridge shifts of 2 each, three engineers for the power plant (page 206), a Steward for up to 10 passengers (though it doesn't say you need a steward so one can cover the crew and a few passengers). The Thorez doesn't have turrets but would need another one or two gunners as well if it were armed. So that is a 200Dton ship, roughly a Far trader but needing 15+ crew.

A 100Dton scout would have the same crew requirements, a 1000Dton ship would have the same crew requirements. Heck the Anjou 2000Dton cargo hauler has a crew of 21 of which 4 are cargo handlers so the ships crew is 17.

I see the situation where Core world ships have these huge crews but as soon as you enter the “Arms” and the frontiers it’s a case of sod the rules and have just as many crew as you need to handle to systems.


I forgot about the engineering crew required for the MHD turbine (oops). I'd look at it like this: use the non-commercial numbers for a safe minimum crew. In the Throez's case that's a bridge crew of 7, plus 2 engineers. Barring comments from Colin, I'd say then divide the non-commercial crew requirements by two, rounding down to figure the bare minimum to operate the ship (say the "night shift" while the rest of the crew sleeps). That comes out to 1 pilot & navigator on the bridge (most likely splitting the other duties) and 1 engineer. Regs aside you'd probably want all 6 stations crewed when you're landing etc., just to avoid task overload. Plus if you're away for weeks

And actually, I thought that the crew requirements in standard Traveller were on the low side. I think that it's more for RPG balance than realism. An 100 ton scout/courier, intended for interstellar travel & capable of operating for 3 and half months, has the same minimum crew as a 95 ton shuttle that's in-system only & has 1/14 the operating time. The US Space Shuttle program carried 5-7 crew on most missions.


Top
Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 2300AD is Back!
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 3:43 pm 
Stoat

Joined: Mon May 30, 2011 2:02 pm
Posts: 51
AndrewW wrote:
Strithe wrote:
I'm sure it would be breaking some regulation if there's something analogous to the FAA at the local starport.


Interstellar Space Authority?


On Earth, I think it would actually be Orbital Quarantine Control. There's a reference in the old Challenge magazine articles about the original edition about traffic control being merged with Orbital Quarantine Control on Earth.

In other systems with heavy traffic (Beta Canum, or the big industrial outpost at Bessieres), they'd need to have a system in place to deal with it. I'd imagine the the really-heavily trafficked ones might levy fines if you're understaffed or miss a radio call: at a minimum I'd think you'd want to have a dedicated person for Pilot, Sensors, and Communications where there's heavy traffic.

As far as names go it'd probably some variation of {system, colony or planet} traffic control. The most tightly regulated areas would be orbital space around the planet or outpost and some standardized pathways leading to & from it.

Come to think of it, 2300ad could really use a Starship Operations Manual type supplement....


Top
Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 2300AD is Back!
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 4:24 pm 
Cosmic Mongoose

Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2008 11:57 pm
Posts: 2640
Strithe wrote:
The US Space Shuttle program carried 5-7 crew on most missions.


But mission specialists and the like wheren't required, crew to actually operate the shuttle was 2. Commander and pilot.


Top
Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 2300AD is Back!
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 7:10 pm 
Stoat

Joined: Mon May 30, 2011 2:02 pm
Posts: 51
Good point. Now that I think about it the Shuttle's probably not a good example anyway. They had considerable support from ground stations, whereas a starship needs to be more self-contained.


Top
Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 2300AD is Back!
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 6:10 am 
Lesser Spotted Mongoose

Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2008 8:28 pm
Posts: 584
Listed crew requirements are regulation crew. In theory, one sufficiently skilled person could cover all positions on a Thorez, but it would likely be a bad idea. Commercial ships are supposed to run with a full watch at all times, and bridge crew requirements are largely irrelevant of ship sizes.


Top
Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 2300AD is Back!
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 9:30 am 
Duck-Billed Mongoose

Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2009 9:58 pm
Posts: 1658
Location: United Kingdom
Colin wrote:
Listed crew requirements are regulation crew. In theory, one sufficiently skilled person could cover all positions on a Thorez, but it would likely be a bad idea. Commercial ships are supposed to run with a full watch at all times, and bridge crew requirements are largely irrelevant of ship sizes.


I think phrases such as “should”, “supposed to” and “regulation” will be out the airlock as soon as you leave the core. The arms and the frontier, where I expect to find players running ships, will be very much as many or as few as we absolutely need which will probably end up being about 4 or 5.

The pilot obviously, an engineer, someone to crew comms and sensors, a navigator if the pilot cannot do that and an engineer in the engine room. This would be at high risk times such as landing or taking off. Most of the flight its going to be someone watch standing who has been trained to recognise problems and shout for the rest of the bridge crew.

I can also see regulations going out the window on the smaller military ships. Those armed 100Dton scouts with a crew requirement of 16 simply don’t have the space for 32Dtons of crew space.

Anyway as you are here Colin what about the other part of my question? Cargo?

As I read the rules cargo is Lv750 per LY per Dton making it vastly more expensive to haul than people are but there seems to be no reason why.

A ship pays life support costs and needs stewards for passengers. Each high passenger takes 4.1Dtons of space, needs a fraction of a Steward and costs Lv2000 a month in life support in return for Lv500 per light year two or three trips a month.

Cargo requires no life support, probably requires a cargo handler fro every 400Dtons or so and requires no life support costs.

An example. A player controlled Thorez picks up 50Dtons of cargo, 2 high passengers and 6 middle passengers on a colony world for transport to a world 7 LY away. The ship will pick up and deliver to down ports as neither world has orbital interfaces.

It’s a 7LY run so the charge for the passengers is Lv3500 each for the two high passengers, Lv700 each for the middle passengers and Lv5250 per Dton for the cargo.

On top of this the book says To Orbit is Lv5000 per passenger and Lv20,000 per Dton for cargo plus Lv500 and Lv2,000 for the From Orbit at the other end since the Thorez is acting as a space plane as well.

So each Dton of cargo will cost the shipper Lv27,250, the whole 50Dton load will cost Lv1,362,500. The passengers who occupy 5 staterooms between them (20Dtons) will cost Lv55,200. Kick out those extra staterooms and haul more cargo

Where does this money go? The overheads for the ship are tiny in comparison to the cargo income alone. Fuel Lv50,000 a run. Crew costs for a player type crew with a few NPCs Lv50,000 a month, life support Lv32,000 a month. The mortgage is tiny since the Thorez costs MLv14, that’s Lv60,000 a month.

The entire operating costs for the ship for a month run to about a quarter million. They clear 1.4 million in this one run and that wasn’t even full. Shorter runs bring in less but you can make three of them or maybe four of them in a month. If it can make even a single run full or two runs half full in a month the Thorez can clear its own mortgage and be a free ship in less than a year and a half.

I may well have missed something since I haven’t yet run the rules for a game and am just playing with ships and shipping to see how it works.

But passengers are literally a waste of space on a ship and cargo is a ridiculously good money maker where shipping costs are not supported by overheads to the hauler.

It gets worse as you scale up. Something like the Anjou is within player range with 6 or 8 NPCs. Buy the thing on a mortgage and you are looking at total monthly costs of Mortgage Lv500,000, wages Lv100,000, Life support 100,000 and maintenance 10,000. Lv710,000 a month. The ship can comfortably make two runs a month. To break even just shipping from interface point to interface point without any to orbit or from orbit costs it must carry 135Dtons a month. If over the entire month it carries its full load of 1,712Dtons split between its runs it will make a mere 8.2 million profit paying for the ships mortgage in little more than a year. If it manages to make both runs at half or better full it can easily make 10 to 12 million clear.

Am I missing some massive costs here somewhere, is there a tax on this income. Because if not then I would start a group of players, form a crew, use shares to get an Anjou, run it for a year to buy it and then another two months to clear enough money for a Thorez or another 6 months and buy an old warship then go adventuring on the frontier in style and this doesn’t begin to cover what a decent Broker skill can do when you have a working fund of 8+ million a month.

I know 2300 is traditionaly about ground adventures but having ported it into Traveller with the expectation that Traveller games involve ships players are going to be looking at running ships. Characters get ship shares to buy those old civilian frieghters and liners and will most likey be doing just that.

Even for Traveller the shipping charges and overheads are a little off balance. :wink:

_________________
Traveller: Nonsense, those rumours about me and crashes, no truth in them at all. I never had a landing I didn't walk away from!

ACTA-SF: Who are we, GORN. What do we want, Cruisers that can turn.... Wait, OK Escorts... Wait. I'll get back to you !


Top
Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 2300AD is Back!
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 10:21 am 
Chief Mongoose

Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2008 10:17 pm
Posts: 5739
Location: Sonthofen / Germany
Captain Jonah wrote:
I think phrases such as “should”, “supposed to” and “regulation” will be out the airlock as soon as you leave the core. The arms and the frontier, where I expect to find players running ships, will be very much as many or as few as we absolutely need ...

Unless the French and German bureaucracies change considerably
until 2300, their colonial administrations will ensure that all regula-
tions are adhered to, with very high fines for anyone who believes
that regulations can be ignored just because the capital is far away
and that colonial bureaucrats are lazy or powerless ... :wink:


Top
Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 2300AD is Back!
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 10:25 am 
Duck-Billed Mongoose

Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2009 9:58 pm
Posts: 1658
Location: United Kingdom
rust wrote:
Captain Jonah wrote:
I think phrases such as “should”, “supposed to” and “regulation” will be out the airlock as soon as you leave the core. The arms and the frontier, where I expect to find players running ships, will be very much as many or as few as we absolutely need ...

Unless the French and German bureaucracies change considerably
until 2300, their colonial administrations will ensure that all regula-
tions are adhered to, with very high fines for anyone who believes
that regulations can be ignored just because the capital is far away
and that colonial bureaucrats are lazy or powerless ... :wink:


Cough Bribe Cough

_________________
Traveller: Nonsense, those rumours about me and crashes, no truth in them at all. I never had a landing I didn't walk away from!

ACTA-SF: Who are we, GORN. What do we want, Cruisers that can turn.... Wait, OK Escorts... Wait. I'll get back to you !


Top
Offline Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 97 posts ]  Moderator: lastbesthope Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
Theme created StylerBB.net