Implications of Warp Drive

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Re: Implications of Warp Drive

Postby Captain Jonah » Thu Mar 08, 2012 3:55 pm

Locarno24 covered the range of the Mega corps since they are going to have the money for those warp 3+ drives. Also consider that a warp ship does Parsecs per week so those huge megacorp Warp 2 freighters can cover the 2-3 parsec jumps between high value market worlds. Without needing to pile in fuel warp 4-6 ships are viable since they only need power plant fuel.

Those warp 6 couriers can be 1000Dton ships and carry a few hundred Dtons of cargo as well as the mail and rush passengers.

Piracy is also going to be something non OTU. The warp ships can make a run of any distance in warp, there is no need to use mid way refuelling stopovers. Backwater worlds that in the OTU are situated to allow those jump 1 and 2 ships to refuel while on the way to the next class A world are no longer needed. The ships warp right on by.

Pirates who once lurked in those systems can only find prey in the main systems. That is where the ships will warp out from and where they will arrive. En route they will be safe in warp space and untouchable. (Well not by the pirates, the warp monsters are a whole other problem :lol: )

Likewise you are going to be looking at a huge gap between core worlds and backwater worlds. There are no mid points anymore. A habitable world with resources is going to be settled and exploited; a dust ball with little to offer is going to be bypassed.

You really will have a Firefly type separation between the wealthy core worlds (though the core can be strung out across sectors) and the fringe worlds that have little to temp visitors and so are ignored.
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Re: Implications of Warp Drive

Postby AndrewW » Thu Mar 08, 2012 5:11 pm

Captain Jonah wrote:Piracy is also going to be something non OTU. The warp ships can make a run of any distance in warp, there is no need to use mid way refuelling stopovers. Backwater worlds that in the OTU are situated to allow those jump 1 and 2 ships to refuel while on the way to the next class A world are no longer needed. The ships warp right on by.
The pirates will just get some interdictor cruisers and pull those ships right out of warp anywhere along the route...
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Re: Implications of Warp Drive

Postby Rikki Tikki Traveller » Thu Mar 08, 2012 9:16 pm

It depends on what you allow for FTL/Warp Sensors.

If you think like Star Trek, then your sensors will be able to detect ships in warp at quite a distance, so pirates could hide out along the travel route and ambush those freighters.

If there is no warp sensor and you treat Warp Space like Jump Space (no contact with the outside world), then there is no way to intercept them until they emerge from warp.

SO, to allow piracy (and honestly, everyone wants pirates in their setting), you need to move the Warp Emergence distance farther out than 100D. Maybe move it to the edge of the system (say 10 AU out) and make those this spend a lot of time travelling in-system on M-Drives so that the pirates have time to attack them and then get out before the cops arrive.

If you keep the 100D limit, then likely piracy won't exist except in special situations - but smuggling would still be viable...
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Re: Implications of Warp Drive

Postby Captain Jonah » Fri Mar 09, 2012 9:23 am

Well if the Pirates have Multi Kiloton Interdiction cruisers why are they not taking over independant worlds rather than going after merchant shipping :twisted:

Warp 1, that is to say 1 parsec a week is 169,52 times light speed.

Now presuming the warp drive throws a wake out both behind it and in front of it and that Gravatic sensors can detect the forward part of the wake as it passes them you are still talking an extremely difficult task to shoot at them.

How far ahead of them does the wake travel, a minute, an hour?

Shooting missiles or torpedoes at the spot where the ship will be when they arrive is going to take some very careful calculation if you are close enough to the flight path to even be in range. How does the warp field work, does it accelerate everything inside the field so micro meteorites (and missiles) enter the field and are propelled along with it, never reaching the ship itself or does it have some other way of dealing with hitting dust at that speed. When your speed is 50,820,817,480 m/s (warp 1) one gram of dust is a big bang so the warp drive must shelter the ship from impacts or moves the ship out of real space. Either way missiles are pretty much out.

Light speed energy weapons can do it if you calculate the point the target will be at the exact time when the beam arrives. Again you need to be exactly in the flight path to be in range.

Shooting down ships in warp is likely to be something nation states play with.

On the other hand didn't someone mention 1000D as the warp limit rather than 100D. That is a huge volume of space, too big for any but the most guarded worlds with significant fleets. There could be designated arrival and departure points but if your navigation is even 0.0001% off you will end up far away from the arrival point. Enough ships dropping out of warp because they hit the 1000D limit rather than arriving at the designated point and you have merchant traffic spread across billions of cubic kilometres.

The big lines have the resources to have teams of Astrogators on a world, they know the exact departure details of the ships and can spend a day calculating a Mega Corp Hyper Freighters course for it. The really big ships may have nothing more than a token navigator aboard to meet safety regulations. Smaller lines and independents may just plot to hit the 1000D limit and drop out that way, after all it’s a lot easier to simply aim at the destination world and let the drive kick you out when it hits the limit than to calculate an exact arrival point close to the Corporate or world Transfer point. Independents don’t have teams of Astrogators taking the 4-24 hours thing to improve their Astrogation rolls.

You still have the engineer roll if using the Mongoose way of calculating jumps but you get a bonus from the Astrogation roll and its not that expensive for the Mega lines to hire one very highly skilled warp engineer for each ship. They have the cash to pay top credit after all.

1000D is going to be at the edge of or beyond most sensor nets so aside from the Warp wake you are not going to know they have even arrived. If the warp wake is detectable only within say 100,000km of the flight path then unless you have seeded the entire 1000D region you are not going to even detect that.

Something I covered for Terra/Sol was way points and transfer stations. These would work well here. At the jump limit (or just inside it for safety) you have space stations, docks, storage facilities etc. Ships arrive at the limit, move to the Transfer points and unload here. Some of these are huge handling millions of Dtons of cargo and hundreds of thousands of passengers a week. The run into the planet is done by 6G haulers and passenger boats.

The jump (or in this case Warp) ships never approach a planet, they are built for deep space.

This speeds up the overall run and gives yet another advantage to the big companies since they can arrive, off load the cargo and passengers onto 6G boats and have them on world much faster than any independent.

However it also means that those same independents are the only ones around with ships that can land on planets. The corporate types will have specialised ships, explorers, frontier couriers etc but those ships are not going running slightly dodgy cargos for the bloke in the bar.

I think the first sign an Independent has that its time to move deeper into the fringe would be a construction ship starting to build a worlds first transfer point. :roll:
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Re: Implications of Warp Drive

Postby Rikki Tikki Traveller » Fri Mar 09, 2012 2:15 pm

Two Points:

1. Regarding the Interception of a Warp Ship
My thought was that the Pirate would detect the ship and then chase it down, not shoot at it from N-space.

2. Transfer Stations
These work even better with a 1000D limit.
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Re: Implications of Warp Drive

Postby Captain Jonah » Fri Mar 09, 2012 3:58 pm

Rikki Tikki Traveller wrote:Two Points:

1. Regarding the Interception of a Warp Ship
My thought was that the Pirate would detect the ship and then chase it down, not shoot at it from N-space.

2. Transfer Stations
These work even better with a 1000D limit.
1. They can do but they still need to do some shooting. Firing missiles or torpedoes out through your warp field is likely to be problematic to say the least :lol:
Firing lasers at something doing a minimum of 169 times light speed when you are going faster is going to be fun. The laser beam will leave the Warp field and be going slower than you are, you would need to overtake and fire backwards because if you fire forwards you will catch up with and hit your own laser beam :shock:

You would need to be a lot faster than the target to catch them, within range to detect them as they fly past (which is going to require a lot of luck of huge Gravatic sensor ranges since they are going to be warping out from a starting point anywhere across a 1000D zone and heading for an equal sized zone. That is a circle 20,001,000km across for a 10,000km world. What is the range of the Gravatic sensors.

As soon as the target notices it is under attack it can start to evade which makes hitting it utterly impossible so the first salvo needs to be a kill and if the pirates are the slightest bit off they can easily wreck themselves as well.

I do find the idea of firing lasers while moving at warp funny, its just one of those comic images, like an episode of Star Trek where Kirk was sped up in time and could step out of the way of a Phaser beam that moved about a foot a second.


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Re: Implications of Warp Drive

Postby jwpacker » Fri Mar 09, 2012 4:13 pm

Rikki Tikki Traveller wrote: 2. Transfer Stations
These work even better with a 1000D limit.
Add in a monopoly on in-system hauling, or xenophobic systems that don't allow any other ship in their space and insist upon transshipment of people and goods, with a thorough inspection process and then in-system delivery by local boats and you have another smuggling opportunity on your hands.
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Re: Implications of Warp Drive

Postby locarno24 » Mon Mar 12, 2012 10:04 am

What is the range of the Gravatic sensors.
Not enough, clearly.
You could postulate a sensor type which can detect a vessel at warp from much further away.

The only effective ship-to-ship weapon is, I suspect, going to be something warp-capable itself. Essentially, you've entered the realm of drone and anti-drone-drone missile engagements.
Understand that I'm not advocating violence.
I'm just saying that it's highly effective and I strongly recommend using it.
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Re: Implications of Warp Drive

Postby Captain Jonah » Mon Mar 12, 2012 2:42 pm

locarno24 wrote:
What is the range of the Gravatic sensors.
Not enough, clearly.
You could postulate a sensor type which can detect a vessel at warp from much further away.

The only effective ship-to-ship weapon is, I suspect, going to be something warp-capable itself. Essentially, you've entered the realm of drone and anti-drone-drone missile engagements.
Ok lets pop the lid on this can of worms then, its a quiet afternoon :lol:

Warp 1 is basically the speed of the slowest target, warp 2 is more the sort of speed most players and the slow bulk ships are going to be doing. Warp 4 is your fast liner type speed and warp 6 is the truly fast stuff.

Now warp 1 (the slow stuff) is moving at 169.52 times light. Or 50,800,000 Km/Sec.

To get one minutes warning of the approach of a warp 1 craft would require a warp detector range of 3,000,800,000 Km. One minute isn’t much time to power up your own warp drives and move to a position where you can chase or attack. Your detection area is a sphere; the target could move across one edge and be gone in seconds even with that radius of sensor.

Now you can park at the mid point of the optimal flight path from A to B, and have a crack crew on battle stations all the time, and have your engines powered up ready for full warp speed in seconds. Or you could be pirates not the state navy.

A simple 10 minute warning would require sensors with a range of 30,000,800,000Km. We are getting a lot of noughts on these numbers.

Now as to shooting them down.

Light speed weapons are out since you are well above light speed.

Warp Torpedoes or missiles as Lorcarno24 said.

To fire a warp speed missile or torpedo you need to be able to build warp drives tiny enough to fit into the casing of the micro craft. They can be cheaper designs with a drive life of an hour or less but you are still looking at something coming it at 1Dton for the Torpedoes and under half a Dton for missiles.

The Torpedoes need to be fast enough to catch a warp 6 ship, the missiles need to be fast enough to catch a torpedo. So warp 10-12 at the top end. How expensive is that going to be. A 100Dton craft with Warp 2 pays 10,meg for its drive which comes in at 10Dtons. A drive a tenth of that size, is it going to cost one tenth the price or is miniaturising something that small going to make it more expensive.

Let us say for example that a 1Dton warp 2 torpedo drive costs a tenth the price of a warp1 scout drive. Mcr1. The unit is also designed to burn out after a short time but must also be made of components that are reliable enough to maintain the warp field in flight and hit the target. Is the enough to reduce the price to a tenth again, its up to the ref but I doubt it, still let us assume you can reduce the price down to a mere Kcr100. This is warp 2, we need to increase it to warp 10 say, so that is a five fold increase making the Torpedo drive cost Kcr500. Add in the warhead, guidance, sensors etc and you are well past the half a meg mark.

Not a problem for your navy with big budgets. Massively more problematic for your pirates. When you are firing several million credits of ordinance at a ship you need to take the ship as well, getting a million credits of cargo from a small freighter that cost you 3 million to stop is going to put your pirates out of business very fast.

Still let us imagine that the costs are much lower. Warp torpedoes at Kcr100 each or Kcr50 each. Defence missiles at Kcr5 each.

We now have pirates firing at ships and ships firing defensive missiles all the while being in warp. Insanely dangerous if you take any sort of damage that interrupts your warp field for even a second, a flickering warp field dumps your ship or part of it back to real space for a thousandth of a second and its goodbye ship, hello plasma flare and dust cloud.

So the pirates fire a torpedo or two at the freighter, if it’s a big Corp job it will have a point defence set up and some anti warp torpedo missiles on board, even players may have a few in a turret. Say you get a torpedo through and do some damage, enough to drop the ship out of warp and back to normal space, if it doesn’t disintegrate, you then have to find it. If it is totally crippled you can turn around and go back to where it left warp, plot it’s most likely course and go find it. If it retained movement or you are not exactly sure of its point of entering real space every second by which you delay your own return to real space puts you 50,800,000Km away from the target.

I’m not saying it cannot be done, navies would develop the techniques and ex navy types can use the less advanced pirate tech to try the same thing. Its going to be a bit hit and miss though.

Alternatively you could have a warp torpedo with a massive Gravatic field generator that burns out in seconds but mimics the gravity well of a moon acting like the 1000D limit and dropping the warp ship into real space. Still going to be expensive even if you go for the really cheap ones.

Another point to consider. Warp capable torpedoes and Missiles requires miniature warp drives. If a 1Dton unit can drive a torpedo to warp then a 5Dton unit can drive a 50Dton small craft to warp. If the cost reduces in line with size that gives you cheaper warp capable craft. A 2Dton unit costing Mcr2 could drive a 20Dton warp launch at warp 2.

You are entering the realms of Star trek with the warp capable shuttles and runabouts that could be used to make FTL runs to other systems with just a few people or a small amount of cargo on board. Or star wars with Warp capable single man fighters.

If you have warp speed missiles you also have warp speed small craft. Fighters than can make their own warp runs over short distances, a carrier drops them off a light hour out, they warp in, attack, warp out and are gone before the light speed signature of the carrier even arrives.

You are moving more towards the Star Wars idea where even small craft can do FTL runs. Its not going to change the dynamics of trade but you could have players being with a squadron of ex fleet FTL capable fighters maybe with one of them flying an old 50Dton warp shuttle with 10Dtons of cargo and room for some passengers (to carry the loot from the raid). :lol:
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Re: Implications of Warp Drive

Postby locarno24 » Mon Mar 12, 2012 2:59 pm

To get one minutes warning of the approach of a warp 1 craft would require a warp detector range of 3,000,800,000 Km. One minute isn’t much time to power up your own warp drives and move to a position where you can chase or attack. Your detection area is a sphere; the target could move across one edge and be gone in seconds even with that radius of sensor.

Now you can park at the mid point of the optimal flight path from A to B, and have a crack crew on battle stations all the time, and have your engines powered up ready for full warp speed in seconds. Or you could be pirates not the state navy.

A simple 10 minute warning would require sensors with a range of 30,000,800,000Km. We are getting a lot of noughts on these numbers.
True. But (lacking any professional qualification in warp physics), it seems to me that you are no longer looking for heat or mass or visible light. You may well be looking for the backwash of exotic energy not found in the universe at large, hence you may well, for all we know, have a sensor range measured in integer percentages of parsecs (that certainly seems to fit for star trek, who get several minutes warning of a ship approaching at warp).
Understand that I'm not advocating violence.
I'm just saying that it's highly effective and I strongly recommend using it.
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Re: Implications of Warp Drive

Postby Rusty_Unycorn » Mon Mar 12, 2012 10:44 pm

Or, we could just skip the entire debate like this.
1) Detecting an incoming warp drive takes a massive sensor installation. Let's say... oh... would 10km diameter work? For say... A 45 degree arc? Let's go with that. Let's give our sensor installation a active range of... hmm... 1AU, that's about 8.3 light-minutes. Passive range (not that that helps with detecting incoming warp drives...), oh, 1.5AU. So, unless our hypothetical pirates have one of those sitting around....
2) If missiles and torpedoes can reach Warp 10-20, why can't ships?! Thus, dropping the warp-capable projectiles. Because Warp 6 should really be our max.
3) No. Just no. I will not have little ships boats clambering around my little universe with dinky little warp drives. No. Okay, maybe an intra-system one. Warp .25 maybe. Oh wait, Warp 1 can cross a system in a matter of hours...
4) Oh, hey, that warp bubble that you just fired at? Yeah, it vaporized the missile. And your lasers are just providing a pretty light show. :twisted:
Now, here's my view: We can figure that there's going to be a typical route taken between stars. It's the most efficient one. So, figure out where that path is, and drop a small asteroid field there. Include several that are bigger than the most probable ship size. A few km out to do it. (In Hard Burn, ships will ignore the gravitation fields of objects smaller than them, and if they pass close enough, then the warp field will push that object aside). When those ships come out of warp in the middle of deep space, you then swarm them and take everything. Of course, this is still hit and miss, unless you happen to see a lonely looking sensor installation in some system somewhere.... :twisted: Then all you have to do is transport it, set it up, and provide power. If you can do that, why not just take over a system?
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Re: Implications of Warp Drive

Postby Captain Jonah » Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:38 am

Hey I said it was a can of worms :lol:

Unintended consequences. Something leads to something else which leads to a third thing and soon it’s not the same universe anymore. FTL weapons/missiles/torpedoes are just a really big can of worms for changes.

Towing asteroids. Very hit and miss. The pirates would need a fairly big tug to move the rocks around.

Mind you. If you are looking at a 1Km rock with a 1000D warp limit. Four of those start to form a big net. Its still going to be random as heck and not a good way to find ships. Mostly due to the size of the tunnel that represents minimum flight time world to world.

I still think the best way is going to be hit and run raids in the main systems.

Warp in far enough out to be clear of sensors then move in close to or just inside the 1000D limit well away from any transfer points. Make like a hole.

Stay silent while any patrols are nearby.

Wait a few hours or days depending on how busy the system is for a likely target to arrive at the 1000D limit close to you and well away from the Transfer points and defences. Ambush, disable, loot, RUN AWAY.

In system long range travel is going to be Warp, the only places you will find ships at normal speeds will be at or inside the 1000D limit.

Consider that smaller (sub 1000Dton) ships are likely to be independents or very small corporations and the most likely ships to hit the warp limit rather than plot for the emergence point. These are the size of ship an average corsair or raider can hit, loot and be gone before 6G stuff can respond. Arriving at the warp limit a small merchant will broadcast its arrival message. This could take up to 30 seconds to reach the world or its transfer platforms if the ship has emerged at the far side of the limit.

The raider spots the target and begins to move it, as soon as it gets close it can jam the merchants comms and open fire.

The system security types will receive word of the arrival, then they may detect the jamming static. Presuming that they recognise the jamming as a hostile act and scramble the ready alert fighters and ships you are still looking at a fair length of time. With regular patrols it is likely a patrol will be closer. Either way this leaves you a good window of time to hit the target.

Or perhaps instead of using that big pirate tug to move asteroids around why not use it to tow a disabled victim outside of the 1000D limit and away.

A few cry babies about the system to divert the locals and it’s a clean snatch and grab :lol:
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Re: Implications of Warp Drive

Postby Darzoni » Fri Mar 23, 2012 2:30 am

So an interesting complication came up. When you measure a ship's range in how many parsecs it can travel before refueling instead of how many jumps it can make, you start running into issues with the standard astrogation rules. There's a negative DM equal to the number of parsecs you're traveling. Sounds great when the max you can jump is 6 parsecs. Not so great when your ship can travel 24 parsecs at warp speed before refueling.

So the solution was to let the navigator chart 'legs' of the route. That is, with a Warp 4 drive, he plots a 4 parsec route, then plot the next 4 parsec leg, etc... Keeps things manageable. Might modify it so that it's a -1 DM per route leg to cut down on the amount of rolling. Such that a 12 parsec route at Warp 4 would be a -3 DM.

It also implies that there are regular refueling points along major travel routes.
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Re: Implications of Warp Drive

Postby Captain Jonah » Fri Mar 23, 2012 10:53 am

They don't need to be refuelling points.

Something from 2300 was the limit on a single jump caused by energy build-up.

Your warp drive runs on the power plant and so will happily run for weeks as long as you have power plant fuel.

What if however there is a limit of how far the Warp drive can run before it needs to drop back into real space to discharge that energy build up at the edge of a gravity well. The practical limit has been set at jump 6 in the OTU since that is the maximum distance any ship can jump.

What if the ships need to get inside the 1000D limit of s stellar body to discharge that build up every 6 parsecs. The faster Warp ships can race to the next world over and back twice before they need to spend a couple of hours discharging the drive build up. The slow ships doing repeated warp 1 runs to the world a parsec away would need to discharge once a month or so.

The discharge could involve finding and contacting an asteroid, docking with a space station or port that has energy discharge vanes or some other option including small frontier ships landing on a planet or just using the ships built in radiators but that takes a number of hours at or inside the warp limit.

Also comes in handy to keep the locals away if you start discharging the warp energy build up into the ground under your ship :twisted:

In this way there are still limits, you cannot jump across the great rifts without a mid way discharge point. There will still be systems of worlds that see a lot of traffic because they are a convenient discharge point for the passing trade and so on.
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