Suggested (Unoffical) CSC Erratta and Amendments

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Re: Suggested (Unoffical) CSC Erratta and Amendments

Postby Rusty_Unycorn » Sat Mar 03, 2012 8:42 am

The entire book needs to be rewritten to be internally consistent, especially with the other books.
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Re: Suggested (Unoffical) CSC Erratta and Amendments

Postby Egil Skallagrimsson » Sat Mar 03, 2012 8:43 am

77thPatron wrote:Pg 68 and 71 - Boarding SMG - the 20mm Grenades for the boarding SMG need stats for damage, weight, costs, etc. The text references these being cut-down 20mm LAG rounds, but LAG (pg.108) has no entry for HEAP or multiple projectile.
Yeah, a pretty daft weapon, not really a grenade thrower, if you want a cut down LAG, saw half the barrel off one.

This has always fallen into the catagory of "not in MTU!"

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Re: Suggested (Unoffical) CSC Erratta and Amendments

Postby Egil Skallagrimsson » Sat Mar 03, 2012 8:50 am

nats wrote:My issue with CSC was with the skills generally. For example flamethrowers have a skill on their own which isnt possible to get in a career and I dont think anyone in their right mind would choose flamethrower or whip skills on their own when they could choose a multiweapon skill instead. I put this into Citizens of the Imperium to sort of synchronise the Core Rules Book with the CSC/Merc skills and its still relevant - some of the weapons skills in the books are far too speciality-based to make a sensible option:

Change energy rifle and energy pistol to one category called laser weapons and alter the CSC to just use the one category instead of the three different laser categories. Heavy Weapons needs to include flamethrowers, autocannon and energy weapons as sub-specialities. Melee needs to include Large Blade, Spear and Axe sub-specialities and the Blade speciality should be changed to Small Blade. Athletics should have Archery and Thrown sub-specialities added. All to accord with CSC and Merc.

The above assumes changing the Melee(Whip) skill mentioned in CSC for stun whips or whatever it is to Melee (Bludgeon) or something similar as otherwise it will be the only weapon requiring that particular skill specialility (cant find any other whips). Also Ive assumed that all the different types of bow/sling specialities mentioned in CSC are all changed to just an all encompasing Athletics (Archery) skill requirement to avoid unnecessary confusion. Also Ive assumed that instead of laser carbines, laser rifles and laser pistols you just use just one sub-specialism called laser weapons for them all. But you could keep them all separate if required (far too fiddly for me).
By and large I agree, Merc and CSC created a lot of unneccessary over-specialiasation, that I tend to ignore and stick to the smaller range of catagories in CRB, e.g. I keep the laser pistol and laser rifle skills separate, because I think that the skill of using a weapon with one or two hand is different, but laser carbines (as a two handed weapon) are covered by the energy rifle skill. As regards flamethrower (actually, this came up in during a game last month), as far as I am concerned, if you have any weapon skill, and have had ten minutes to familiarise yourself with the nozzel control, ignition system etc, you have "Flamethrower 0", I don't see this as a complicated weapon to use.

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Re: Suggested (Unoffical) CSC Erratta and Amendments

Postby Rusty_Unycorn » Sat Mar 03, 2012 9:07 am

[quote="Egil Skallagrimsson"

As regards flamethrower (actually, this came up in during a game last month), as far as I am concerned, if you have any weapon skill, and have had ten minutes to familiarise yourself with the nozzel control, ignition system etc, you have "Flamethrower 0", I don't see this as a complicated weapon to use.

Egil[/quote]

Yeah, flamethrowers are simple to use. Well, once you get past the issues of tank pressure, fuel clogs, maintaining the proper spread, etc... But that's advanced stuff. Flamethrower 1 and above. Otherwise, point in general direction of target, pull the trigger, and hope that you don't cath your allies. An AOE (Area of Effect) weapon like that is simple.
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Re: Suggested (Unoffical) CSC Erratta and Amendments

Postby nats » Sat Mar 03, 2012 10:34 am

Rusty_Unycorn wrote: Yeah, flamethrowers are simple to use. Well, once you get past the issues of tank pressure, fuel clogs, maintaining the proper spread, etc... But that's advanced stuff. Flamethrower 1 and above. Otherwise, point in general direction of target, pull the trigger, and hope that you don't cath your allies. An AOE (Area of Effect) weapon like that is simple.
Surely its exactly the same with a machinegun? I think personally there more to learn with a flamethrower than with a machinegun or pistol. Either way though it doesnt deserve a specialism of its own. Heavy weapons specialism would suit it fine I am sure.
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Re: Suggested (Unoffical) CSC Erratta and Amendments

Postby 77thPatron » Sat Mar 03, 2012 12:11 pm

pg. 182 - Autodoc (T L12): An autodoc is a specialised, immobile medical
robot, which is often installed inside vehicles or spacecraft. It runs
Intellect/1 and Medic/3 and has access to all the resources of a TL
12 medikit. Cr. 40,000.

This should be Medic/2, because Expert: Medic/3 would normally be priced at 100,000 Cr.

Never mind that there is also a TL-13 autodoc on page 169 that costs only 100,000 Cr. and has Medic/3 as well. You are getting the hardware for free!
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Re: Suggested (Unoffical) CSC Erratta and Amendments

Postby Egil Skallagrimsson » Tue Mar 06, 2012 5:58 pm

nats wrote:
Rusty_Unycorn wrote: Yeah, flamethrowers are simple to use. Well, once you get past the issues of tank pressure, fuel clogs, maintaining the proper spread, etc... But that's advanced stuff. Flamethrower 1 and above. Otherwise, point in general direction of target, pull the trigger, and hope that you don't cath your allies. An AOE (Area of Effect) weapon like that is simple.
Surely its exactly the same with a machinegun? I think personally there more to learn with a flamethrower than with a machinegun or pistol. Either way though it doesnt deserve a specialism of its own. Heavy weapons specialism would suit it fine I am sure.
CSC puts most machine guns in the "slug rifle" skill, which is fine. Remember that even in the CSC, with its "Heavy weapons, flame throwers" skill, if you have any other heavy weapon skill, e.g. "PGMP 2", or even "Launchers 0", you will automatically have "flame thrower 0".

However, if flame throwers are common weapons in YTU ( :twisted: ), then you might want to allow training to be easily available during character generation, perhaps instead of launchers!

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Re: Suggested (Unoffical) CSC Erratta and Amendments

Postby 77thPatron » Tue Mar 06, 2012 6:40 pm

Advanced Intrusion Kit needs a price! pg 171. Weights would not hurt either... I mean if you are going to copy stuff from the T20 Traveller's Guide Book, at least be thorough about it!
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Re: Suggested (Unoffical) CSC Erratta and Amendments

Postby Egil Skallagrimsson » Mon Mar 12, 2012 9:31 pm

apoc527 wrote:Actually, I think that's backwards. The automatic rifle is correct, it's the self-loading rifle that is wrong and needs its damage upped to 3d6+3 SAP.
apoc527 I think you are right :D , and that the 3d6+3 SAP can be applied to weapons using "7mm" rounds, without unbalancing relative small arms damage. The "Self-loading Rifle" should have it's recoil increased to "2", bringing it into line with the "Full bore rifle".

Oh, and the ammo costs for the "Gauss Support Weapon" do not tally with those for gauss rifle (p82), even though they are supposed to be the same size gauss needles and the gauss rifle magazines are stated as interchangable. The "Gauss Support Weapon RF" (p107) ammo costs also looks a bit suspect.

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Re: Suggested (Unoffical) CSC Erratta and Amendments

Postby 77thPatron » Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:25 pm

Egil Skallagrimsson wrote:
apoc527 wrote:Actually, I think that's backwards. The automatic rifle is correct, it's the self-loading rifle that is wrong and needs its damage upped to 3d6+3 SAP.
apoc527 I think you are right :D , and that the 3d6+3 SAP can be applied to weapons using "7mm" rounds, without unbalancing relative small arms damage. The "Self-loading Rifle" should have it's recoil increased to "2", bringing it into line with the "Full bore rifle".

Oh, and the ammo costs for the "Gauss Support Weapon" do not tally with those for gauss rifle (p82), even though they are supposed to be the same size gauss needles and the gauss rifle magazines are stated as interchangable. The "Gauss Support Weapon RF" (p107) ammo costs also looks a bit suspect.

Egil


The slug weapons should have a modular design system. I should be able to build a 4mm, 5mm, 6mm, 7mm, 8mm, 9mm, 10mm, 11mm, 12mm, 13mm, 14mm round in short, intermediate, long, magnum, gauss, for a revolver, auto-pistol, Advanced Combat Pistol, SMG, bolt action rifle, self loading rifle, assault rifle, bullpup assault rifle, autorifle, ACR - bolt action carbine, self loading carbine, assault carbine, bullpup assault carbine, auto-carbine, ACC - etc.
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Re: Suggested (Unoffical) CSC Erratta and Amendments

Postby Rusty_Unycorn » Sun Mar 18, 2012 10:43 pm

77thPatron wrote:
The slug weapons should have a modular design system. I should be able to build a 4mm, 5mm, 6mm, 7mm, 8mm, 9mm, 10mm, 11mm, 12mm, 13mm, 14mm round in short, intermediate, long, magnum, gauss, for a revolver, auto-pistol, Advanced Combat Pistol, SMG, bolt action rifle, self loading rifle, assault rifle, bullpup assault rifle, autorifle, ACR - bolt action carbine, self loading carbine, assault carbine, bullpup assault carbine, auto-carbine, ACC - etc.
..... *jaw drops*...
This ain't GURPS. We do not aim to be crunchy.
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Re: Suggested (Unoffical) CSC Erratta and Amendments

Postby GypsyComet » Mon Mar 19, 2012 2:28 am

77thPatron wrote: The slug weapons should have a modular design system. I should be able to build a 4mm, 5mm, 6mm, 7mm, 8mm, 9mm, 10mm, 11mm, 12mm, 13mm, 14mm round in short, intermediate, long, magnum, gauss, for a revolver, auto-pistol, Advanced Combat Pistol, SMG, bolt action rifle, self loading rifle, assault rifle, bullpup assault rifle, autorifle, ACR - bolt action carbine, self loading carbine, assault carbine, bullpup assault carbine, auto-carbine, ACC - etc.
Isn't TNE's Fire, Fusion, and Steel available in PDF these days?
(Checks RPGNow)
Why yes. Yes it is. So is Greg Porter's Guns! Guns! Guns!

Be wary of diving into the weapons too much, though. You may end up tossing it all out to start over...
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Re: Suggested (Unoffical) CSC Erratta and Amendments

Postby Easterner » Tue Mar 20, 2012 11:04 am

GypsyComet wrote:

Be wary of diving into the weapons too much, though. You may end up tossing it all out to start over...

That is so true! However it's true because the damage model is broken and tinkering doesn't really fix-it.
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Re: Suggested (Unoffical) CSC Erratta and Amendments

Postby Egil Skallagrimsson » Tue Mar 20, 2012 7:04 pm

Easterner wrote:
GypsyComet wrote:

Be wary of diving into the weapons too much, though. You may end up tossing it all out to start over...

That is so true! However it's true because the damage model is broken and tinkering doesn't really fix-it.
Don't agree, tinkering is fine, the basic mechanic is easy to use, allows declining ability as damage increases, and generally creates a gritty but sci-fi movie feel.

Yes, Trav combat small arms combat is not as deadly as the real thing, but in practice it is lethal enough for a rpg, after two rifle hits an unarmoured character will probably be unconscious, possibly dead. If you really don't like your players, simply rule that one (or more :twisted: ) dice is always a 6, so increasing rifle dam from an av of 10.5 to 13; or just double rolled damage. Personally, I will stick with the basic MgT parameters and tinker with details. When I want to play high body count wargames, I use different rules.

This thread is about erratta and amendments to the csc not a completely new system.

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Re: Suggested (Unoffical) CSC Erratta and Amendments

Postby Egil Skallagrimsson » Tue Mar 20, 2012 7:08 pm

77thPatron wrote: The slug weapons should have a modular design system. I should be able to build a 4mm, 5mm, 6mm, 7mm, 8mm, 9mm, 10mm, 11mm, 12mm, 13mm, 14mm round in short, intermediate, long, magnum, gauss, for a revolver, auto-pistol, Advanced Combat Pistol, SMG, bolt action rifle, self loading rifle, assault rifle, bullpup assault rifle, autorifle, ACR - bolt action carbine, self loading carbine, assault carbine, bullpup assault carbine, auto-carbine, ACC - etc.
Whoah there! Far too much detail!

As has been wisely said, "This ain't GURPS"

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Re: Suggested (Unoffical) CSC Erratta and Amendments

Postby Easterner » Fri Mar 23, 2012 2:10 am

Protec suit TL 8 on pg 134
Protec suit TL 9 on page 135

MgT needs pick one.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
For the record an average person is 777.

A 7mm rifle with 1 bullet is quite lethal to ordinary man. That means 7d6 damage from 7mmm weapon to get kill to just 50%. Gun combat is irrefutably broken. Since gun stats are in CSC, they should be revised. However armor and penetration need to then be revised, That is why I agreed you can try to fix, but it always falls apart as too much interrelated things affected by it too. MgT needs to fix it.
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Re: Suggested (Unoffical) CSC Erratta and Amendments

Postby far-trader » Fri Mar 23, 2012 3:37 am

Easterner wrote:For the record an average person is 777.

A 7mm rifle with 1 bullet is quite lethal to ordinary man. That means 7d6 damage from 7mmm weapon to get kill to just 50%. Gun combat is irrefutably broken. Since gun stats are in CSC, they should be revised. However armor and penetration need to then be revised, That is why I agreed you can try to fix, but it always falls apart as too much interrelated things affected by it too. MgT needs to fix it.
Granted MGT nerfed lethality a bit, probably in the interest of playability (and people still complain that it is too deadly, go figure). CT Unconsciousness was after ONE stat reduced to zero, not TWO stats. Return to that if you want a little more deadly action. Still not deadly/realistic enough? Make two stats reduced to zero = death (but survivable if quickly treated).

However, for the sake of argument, a single small caliber pistol round is also quite lethal to an ordinary man. Just as lethal as the 7mm rifle bullet you're positing. And generally speaking each is just as lethal* to the 111 as to the 777 or even the FFF person in Real Life (tm)... but this is a game.

* depending on circumstances of course

Changing the dice of damage is not the way to fix it. Don't forget the Effect bonus. And I'd say situational modifiers should count as well. If you are not moving and I aim at you at a comfortable range, BANG! You are dead. No need to roll to hit. No need to roll damage. C'est la fait accompli mon ami.

However, being a game, and generally with gunplay, it is not going to be calm and quiet. It will be frenetic. Aiming will be that in name only. Shots may miss entirely, or go cleanly through a fleshy part with little effect, or hit bone and stop, etc. etc. etc. All of which has to be modeled with a simple die roll or two. Not every shot in combat is a killing shot. That's why guns are given big magazines with a lot of bullets. One won't always do the job, more is better. Or, my favorite quote on the subject:

"Maxim thirty-seven: There is no overkill. There is only open fire and time to reload."

From 'The Seventy Maxims of Maximally Effective Mercenaries' and the webcomic Schlock Mercenary by Howard Taylor

You need to stop thinking... dueling pistols at dawn; quickdraw shootout at high noon; and one-bullet, one-kill snipers. Think more along the lines of... drive-by gangbangers firing automatic weapons into a crowd of other gangbanges, missing them all, but hitting an innocent bystander a block away; or the classic true story (so I'm told) of a shoot out between a trained police officer and an armed suspect in which several rounds were exchanged (13?), none hit, all inside the officer's patrol car, fired over the back seat between the two, until they both ran out of bullets.

Gun combat is NOT irrefutably broken. It can never hope to model reality and remain playable. It can and should only give a passing nod to attempting to with the goal actually being something else entirely, a means to an end in story-telling.
Dan "far-trader" Burns

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Re: Suggested (Unoffical) CSC Erratta and Amendments

Postby GypsyComet » Fri Mar 23, 2012 5:55 am

I wonder if the TNE lethality article is available somewhere other than the Challenge archive...

We should probably take talk of this kind of revision elsewhere, like -> viewtopic.php?f=89&t=50753
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Re: Suggested (Unoffical) CSC Erratta and Amendments

Postby Egil Skallagrimsson » Sun Dec 15, 2013 11:37 pm

Egil Skallagrimsson wrote:
apoc527 wrote:Actually, I think that's backwards. The automatic rifle is correct, it's the self-loading rifle that is wrong and needs its damage upped to 3d6+3 SAP.
apoc527 I think you are right :D , and that the 3d6+3 SAP can be applied to weapons using "7mm" rounds, without unbalancing relative small arms damage. The "Self-loading Rifle" should have it's recoil increased to "2", bringing it into line with the "Full bore rifle".

Oh, and the ammo costs for the "Gauss Support Weapon" do not tally with those for gauss rifle (p82), even though they are supposed to be the same size gauss needles and the gauss rifle magazines are stated as interchangable. The "Gauss Support Weapon RF" (p107) ammo costs also looks a bit suspect.

Egil
In the end we stuck with 3d6 for autorifles and SLRs, so what appears to be different size of slug, on the basis that the hole made by a 7mm round is only slightly bigger than that made by a 5mm round. As an experiment, we did increase the 7mm penetration to AP out to 250m, and SAP beyond, which made those weapons slightly more effective against armoured targets, but decided it wasn't worthwhile trying to make such fine distinctions in a rpg.

Those from a GURPs background may not agree ...

Egil
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Re: Suggested (Unoffical) CSC Erratta and Amendments

Postby alex_greene » Sun Dec 15, 2013 11:48 pm

I think the CSC really needs to concentrate on stuff like food, clothing, sensors, scientific instruments, measuring and recording devices, survival gear, drugs and medicines and tools, rather than almost exclusively on weapons.

How about illegal goods and contraband as well, and perhaps a random table for small cargoes for those grey-area little missions where a cargo container would just be too big for such little payloads, but the boot of a four-door ground car sedan would be just the right size?
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