2300AD Core Book Preview

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barnest2
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Re: 2300AD Core Book Preview

Postby barnest2 » Thu Feb 02, 2012 9:20 pm

I'm speaking purely on the discussion of using terms considered racially inappropriate on an open and public forum with no thought. I have no opinion or comment on the name used for a world in 2300.
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Re: 2300AD Core Book Preview

Postby Wil Mireu » Thu Feb 02, 2012 9:39 pm

barnest2 wrote:I'm speaking purely on the discussion of using terms considered racially inappropriate on an open and public forum with no thought. I have no opinion or comment on the name used for a world in 2300.
Oh for heavens sake. We're not calling anyone those names, so nobody is going to be offended by it. If we can't even discuss this sort of thing openly then of course everyone is going to be cowering away from the topic. I don't approve of racism at all, but being terrified to use certain words in an objective context is just stupid.

I am sick of this "ooo, we can't say this because we might offend someone" attitude. People need to grow up and be mature about it.
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Re: 2300AD Core Book Preview

Postby rust » Thu Feb 02, 2012 9:52 pm

Well, as mentioned I am quite happy with "Kaefer", at least
the German players will have no more doubts about its pro-
nunciation and meaning. :wink:

And perhaps one day there will even be a future version of
2300AD without headaches like a spacecraft named "Vogel-
perspektive" ... :D
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Re: 2300AD Core Book Preview

Postby middenface » Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:41 pm

rust wrote: And perhaps one day there will even be a future version of
2300AD without headaches like a spacecraft named "Vogel-
perspektive" ... :D

Oh I built one of them, what should it be called ?
http://biomassart.wordpress.com/2011/10 ... ns-take-2/

I also posted the ARI patch. I've been told the correct wording, so I'll fix that (its not in the new 2300AD)
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Re: 2300AD Core Book Preview

Postby rust » Thu Feb 02, 2012 11:00 pm

middenface wrote: Oh I built one of them, what should it be called ?
http://biomassart.wordpress.com/2011/10 ... ns-take-2/
Very nice indeed. :)

"Vogelperspektive" means "Bird's Eye View", so the spacecraft
which enables such a view should be a "Bird's Eye", in German
for example a "Vogelauge". This would be better, but it would
still not be a very plausible name, the most likely kind of name
in the German naming tradition would be something like "Fal-
kenauge" (= Hawk's Eye) or "Adlerauge" (= Eagle's Eye).
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Re: 2300AD Core Book Preview

Postby Rick » Thu Feb 02, 2012 11:17 pm

rust wrote:
middenface wrote: Oh I built one of them, what should it be called ?
http://biomassart.wordpress.com/2011/10 ... ns-take-2/
Very nice indeed. :)

"Vogelperspektive" means "Bird's Eye View", so the spacecraft
which enables such a view should be a "Bird's Eye", in German
for example a "Vogelauge". This would be better, but it would
still not be a very plausible name, the most likely kind of name
in the German naming tradition would be something like "Fal-
kenauge" (= Hawk's Eye) or "Adlerauge" (= Eagle's Eye).
"Falkenauge" would fit in with the modern US Navy 'Hawkeye' AWACS aircraft quite well.
"Understanding is a 3-edged sword" bit like a toblerone, really.
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Re: 2300AD Core Book Preview

Postby Colin » Thu Feb 02, 2012 11:55 pm

The debate about the name "Kafer/Kaefer" is, well, odd. I understand perfectly Mongoose's desire to change it. To be honest, I wanted to change the name entirely, and suggested "rukh" (Ukrainian for lobster/crayfish, I think...)

The first time my wife saw the term "Kafer" she was astonished that anyone would use that particular word. Once she understood the meaning, she was mollified, but you shouldn't have to explain that a word in a made-up game is "not" racist. If it is questionable, then it probably doesn't belong there.
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Re: 2300AD Core Book Preview

Postby Colin » Thu Feb 02, 2012 11:57 pm

On the topic of language, I ran out of time to ensure that language use in 2300AD was correct. I intend to make sure that in follow-on products, language is used properly. If that means a little retconning in the Arm sourcebooks, so be it. I can explain most of them with a "proper name / poor anglicization" sort of thing.
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Re: 2300AD Core Book Preview

Postby Colin » Fri Feb 03, 2012 12:01 am

Oh, and Rust. what would "Kestrel's Eye" be?
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Re: 2300AD Core Book Preview

Postby rust » Fri Feb 03, 2012 12:42 am

Colin wrote:Oh, and Rust. what would "Kestrel's Eye" be?
That one is a bit difficult, because a kestrel is a "Turmfalke"
(= "tower falcon"), but "Turmfalkenauge" ("tower falcon eye")
is rather long and does not sound well - I would probably use
"Falkenauge".

Edit.:
By the way, can it be that "falcon" and "hawk" are the same
animal in English usage ?
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Re: 2300AD Core Book Preview

Postby Wil Mireu » Fri Feb 03, 2012 1:41 am

Colin wrote:The debate about the name "Kafer/Kaefer" is, well, odd. I understand perfectly Mongoose's desire to change it. To be honest, I wanted to change the name entirely, and suggested "rukh" (Ukrainian for lobster/crayfish, I think...)

The first time my wife saw the term "Kafer" she was astonished that anyone would use that particular word. Once she understood the meaning, she was mollified, but you shouldn't have to explain that a word in a made-up game is "not" racist. If it is questionable, then it probably doesn't belong there.
I think it is not questionable at all though. Let's go through the logic, shall we?

The german word is pronounced and spelt differently to the "racist" version.

It's Kay-fer (Käfer) vs kah-fur (kaffir) - or kafir (I think this is kah-fur or kah-fear. Either way, it's not kay-fer)

One is a five letter word, the other is a six letter word.
One has one "f" in it, the other has two "f"s.
One is germanic origin, the other is arabic in origin.
One has an umlaut, the other does not.

They are clearly two different words, with two different pronounciations, with two different meanings.

But hey, if people can supposedly confuse those two words, how about this:

A "nagger" is someone who nags, and it's pronounced "nah-gger". The racist word "nigger" has an "a" instead of an "i" (which, if you notice, is less of a difference than between Käfer and kaffir) and means something completely different and is pronounced "ni-gger". So should people stop using the word "nagger" for fear of someone confusing it with the racist term? No, because it's two different words, with two different pronounciations, and two different meanings.

Kay-fur vs kah-fur. The former is not offensive to anyone, the latter is.
nah-gger vs ni-gger. The former is not offensive to anyone, the latter is.

So would you never use the word "nagger" again? If you don't have a problem with that, then why would you have an issue with "Käfer"?

What's happening here is that there is a precedent is being set to cater to an hypothetical irrational knee-jerk reaction based on people not reading a word properly. Do you really want to set that sort of precedent here? Really?
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Re: 2300AD Core Book Preview

Postby apoc527 » Fri Feb 03, 2012 4:59 am

I'm new to 2300AD, but I can basically tell you that the discussion are trying to have right here and is all the justification they needed for changing it. Guess they were right! :wink:
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Re: 2300AD Core Book Preview

Postby dalek4890l » Fri Feb 03, 2012 8:07 am

I think the original 2300 also took sevre liberties ( or should that be Libertes :D )with the French language. I recall a letter in an old challenge magazine about the Nouveau Quebec colony being misnamed as it should be Quebec Nouveau.

Personally I prefer Kaefer. At least it now looks as you are supposed to pronounce it. After reading about Kaefers I never liked the reference that it could also be a slang term for 'Sweetheart'.
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Re: 2300AD Core Book Preview

Postby Mikko Leho » Fri Feb 03, 2012 2:41 pm

Wil Mireu wrote:Do you really want to set that sort of precedent here? Really?
I think you have gotten your niggers, oh I mean knickers in a twist for nothing.
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Re: 2300AD Core Book Preview

Postby MongooseMatt » Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:53 pm

apoc527 wrote:I'm new to 2300AD, but I can basically tell you that the discussion are trying to have right here and is all the justification they needed for changing it. Guess they were right! :wink:
Exactly :)
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Re: 2300AD Core Book Preview

Postby Wil Mireu » Fri Feb 03, 2012 8:14 pm

msprange wrote:
apoc527 wrote:I'm new to 2300AD, but I can basically tell you that the discussion are trying to have right here and is all the justification they needed for changing it. Guess they were right! :wink:
Exactly :)
I would like to see your "logic" for that statement, because I just explained why they had no justification for changing it at all. This discussion wouldn't be happening at all if they'd just kept them as "Käfers".

It also runs counter to this idea of "getting the language right". You're keen to use the correct french and german words, but apparently you run shrieking from the completely innocuous german word for "beetle", which is used in a perfectly appropriate context here, because nobody has actually complained about it.

Instead, we now have this bastardised word with an "ae" in it (which German doesn't use, as far as I know) that sounds exactly the same but doesn't mean anything at all. What is your in-game justification for that? "These german scientists noted their resemblance to beetles, but since the eradication of the umlaut in 2253 they had to call them 'Kaefers'"?

I'd also be interested to know if Germans nowadays are terrified to use the word "Käfer" in conversation because they think it'll be misinterpreted as a racial slur. I suspect that people involved in such a conversation would be intelligent enough to realise that the pronunciation and context means they're talking about beetles.
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Re: 2300AD Core Book Preview

Postby rust » Fri Feb 03, 2012 8:26 pm

Wil Mireu wrote: Instead, we now have this bastardised word with an "ae" in it (which German doesn't use, as far as I know) ...
It does, the "ae" became an accepted alternative for the "ä", mainly
because early keyboards, software solutions and optical recognition
systems could not handle the "ä" well.
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Re: 2300AD Core Book Preview

Postby Wil Mireu » Fri Feb 03, 2012 9:03 pm

rust wrote:
Wil Mireu wrote: Instead, we now have this bastardised word with an "ae" in it (which German doesn't use, as far as I know) ...
It does, the "ae" became an accepted alternative for the "ä", mainly
because early keyboards, software solutions and optical recognition
systems could not handle the "ä" well.
That is hardly a good argument to use for a game set in 2300AD though, where that wouldn't be a problem. And why couldn't they just call them Käfers (with the umlaut?) instead? That way the "beetle" meaning would have been preserved, the germanic origin would be more obvious, and it's very clearly not any kind of "racial slur". Instead it seems that Mongoose went for the clumsiest possible "solution" to a problem that didn't exist in the first place (perhaps they would claim that they are using 1970s technology to produce and publish their books that cannot handle the umlaut? ;) ).

To be honest the change of the word itself doesn't bother me so much as the supposed reason and nonsensical "logic" for changing it, and the precedent that it sets.

Has anybody read Orson Scott Card's "Enders Game"? The aliens in that were called "Buggers", which is spelt and pronounced exactly the same way as a colloquial british term that can also mean "to sodomize". And yet, despite the fact that millions of people have read this book, I do not think anyone has complained about that to the extent that they would consider changing that name in subsequent editions (they're also called "Formics", but the "Buggers" name remains) - and I would say that they have much more reason to believe that someone could be offended by that than Mongoose has with "Käfer".
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Re: 2300AD Core Book Preview

Postby silburnl » Fri Feb 03, 2012 9:34 pm

Nice to see this. I have some comments:

Firstly I approve of the Kaefer respelling - it's the orthographically correct rendition of an umlauted vowel in an 'English' typeset and, as someone who had and ran the game back in the late 80s/90s, I can attest that 'The Kaffir Confusion' was a live topic amongst UK-based english speakers back then. Indeed after a quick google I can see people raising the point on the boards at both rpg.net and CotI as recently as 2009, so its not really gone away.

I second the earlier comment about the layout of page 19 (pg 4 in the preview) - some kind of horizontal element dividing off the top quarter of the page would make this more readable. Also I have to say that the overall look of the tables isn't especially pleasing - functional and uncluttered would be the nice way of describing them I suppose.

Still on p19, there's a typo in the sample UNP given for the French Empire (it has one too many digits in the main block) plus what looks like another in the sample UNP for Metropolitan France - a population of 100,000 (10^5 x 1) is far too small.

The disease tables on p39 (pg5) both label the first column as 'Disease Virulence' - which is confusing I think as it implies that the severity and interval properties are linked, rather than independant, variables.

Typo on p109 (pg 6) - the 'Pentapod Enclave' entry is out of date order with the rest of the table.

Looking at that contact chronology I am struck by the weirdness of the first contacts all (apart from the Kaefers) happening in a single decade out of the ~150 year history of interstellar operations. It's an inherited tic of the setting and not a biggie in the order of things (compared to the general tin ear that the original designers had for international relations ofr instance), but it seems somewhat implausible.

Further down on the same page the first paragraph about the Ebers says that their interstellar war left survivors on a 'lone colony', but the next paragraph says that they were discovered on their 'homeworld' of 82 Eridani. To my mind homeworld and colony are mutually exclusive categories; 82 Eridani may be the only place where Ebers survived but if they didn't evolve in that biosphere, then it isn't their homeworld.

Finally (for this page), I don't like the Kaefer in the picture of the bottom - it's much too humaniform and there doesn't appear to be any sign of the 'carapace' that Kaefers are supposed to have. I'd be wondering what the German mercs who nicknamed them bugs had been smoking if they actually looked like that picture....

Typo on p183 (pg7) - there's no ammo listed for the pintle mount HMG of the Lynx.

Typo on p218 (pg8) - no cost scale given for the data table of the Star Carrier XV (I assume it is in MLv like the Anjou example on the next page?)

Beanstalk Ops on p259 (pg10) - the suggested deckplan is a bit strange IMO; wouldn't it be more convenient for the stewards if they didn't have to carry food through the rec deck to get to the dining salon? Also, if it were me, I'd put the observation deck at the bottom of the capsule (but that's more a taste thing I concede).

Anyway - enough of the nitpickery. I look forward to seeing the finished book.

Regards
Luke
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Re: 2300AD Core Book Preview

Postby MongooseMatt » Sat Feb 04, 2012 1:34 pm

Wil Mireu wrote: I would like to see your "logic" for that statement, because I just explained why they had no justification for changing it at all. This discussion wouldn't be happening at all if they'd just kept them as "Käfers".
As someone else pointed out, it is a topic that still pops up on RPG forums. This change has no effect on the game (it still gets pronounced the same way and it is a viable change for evolving language) and side steps the issue entirely. For the cost of one letter.

It may be easier to understand if you live in our world for a moment. I have a woman in South Africa praying for my soul because we once published a book about demons.

It takes all types in this world and if an extra e spares me some pain, I will happily pay for the extra ink :
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