Size of Vehicles (for deck plans)

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Jak Nazryth
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Size of Vehicles (for deck plans)

Postby Jak Nazryth » Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:20 am

I remember a similar thread a long time ago, but at the time I didn't pay much attention to it.
So I'll ask the question again.
How to do calculate the size of a vehicle (FOR A DECK PLAN) out of the vehicle handbooks.

For instance, in the Core rules, an air/raft requires 4 tons of space on a starship.
An ATV requires 10 tons per Core rules page 111. A G-Carrier is 8 tons in CT but is not mentioned on page 111, but is covered on page 103. Page 103 gives no indication on how to reconcile between the two tables.
When you go the vehicle books, you only get cubic meters. For instance, on page 54 of military vehicles, a G-Carrier is 32cm (base 26).... What does that mean in terms of actual length, width, height? 1 ton =13.5 cm... so does that mean a G-Carrier is 2.37 tons? Of course not.

Has anyone figured this out? Thanks.

I am specifying the load out of several 30ton modules for the modular cutter.
In the core book there is mention of an ATV module for 1 vehicle, but it seems to me you could get at least 2, maybe 3 ATVs in a 30 ton bay.

I've also noticed that it appears the Mongoose version of the mod cutter is now only 1 floor. The other versions had two decks because the mod cutter was basically a "two story" diameter tube on it's side, thus two decks.

Long ago I downloaded fan deigned modular cutter designs from offices, to bars, disco's, fighter bays, and on and on... but I can't seem to locate them on freelance anymore. Anyone know the deck plans I'm talking about?
Jak Nazryth
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Re: Size of Vehicles (for deck plans)

Postby Jak Nazryth » Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:30 am

Oops. I forgot to add on page 4 of military vehicles, under step 1: Capacity - that to calculate displacement tons, for inside a star ship, that 10cubic meters equates to 1 ton.
So if an ATV is 48cm (cubic meters) per military vehicles page 32, that means it's only 4.8 tons... but the core rules say it's 10 tons on page 111.
I don't get it.
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Re: Size of Vehicles (for deck plans)

Postby Rusty_Unycorn » Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:55 am

You have to extrapolate. Usually, vehicles are 1, maybe 1.5 dtons height (less than 3meters, to 4.5meters.). Now, most vehicles are longer than they are wide, and width and height are usually right about the same. So, a vehicle might be only a few dtons in terms of raw space, but once the dimensions are taken into consideration, it's usually more in terms of deck space used for storing the damn thing. Thus, we see that an ATV would actually take up that much space, especially considering that you have to have enough space left over to get to the side doors.
It gets easier the more you get used to the implied-but-not-there crunchy stuff -_-
ImpReg: Ship Design: Section VI: Sub-Section 2: Item 2: All Ships must carry a minimum of one (1) Coffee Maker per Crewstation.
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Re: Size of Vehicles (for deck plans)

Postby Jeraa » Fri Jan 27, 2012 3:09 am

First, if you have to abbreviate cubic meters, use m3 or something, as cm is centimeters.

The vehicles in the core rule weren't designed with the vehicle creation books (I don't think, at least.) More likely, they picked those numbers from the original designs, way back in Classic Traveller.

When they made the vehicle design sequences, the vehicles specs changed. If you are going to use the vehicle books, then use the stats in those books instead of the core rulebook ones. The core rulebook and the vehicle books are not compatible. Use either one, but not both.
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Re: Size of Vehicles (for deck plans)

Postby phavoc » Fri Jan 27, 2012 4:06 am

For cutter modules I highly suggest the GURPS Modular cutter book. It has a ton of modules with floorplans, including an ATV. Keep in mind that the 30Dton module will have an upper and lower deck due to their size.

For regular deckplans you should leave space around the vehicle. An air raft, at 4 Dtons, would fit on a 2x4 grid square, which should give you enough room to load it, assuming a cramped area around it. You could use the same logic for storing vehicles. When you can control gravity it's easy. As a general rule of thumb, if you are storing objects like a module for a cutter, you can use the displacement + 10% rule the book uses for storing small craft in form-fit areas. Or you could just swag it, whichever you feel best.

But yeah, the book is sometimes confusing and misleading about stuff like that. Oh, and contradictory too sometimes. :)
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Re: Size of Vehicles (for deck plans)

Postby Jak Nazryth » Fri Jan 27, 2012 4:25 am

Jeraa wrote:First, if you have to abbreviate cubic meters, use m3 or something, as cm is centimeters.
:oops:

ahemmm..... oops. :roll:

yeah... my use of cm meant cubic meters, not centimeters. I'll use m3 from now on. 8)

I do have to point out that the core rules do give some wiggle room with stated size on page 111 that indicates the size given include "minimal hanger space" for the specific vehicle. I simply want to know, what is it's actual size.

As the rules are currently written, as R_U mentioned, there has to be a little extrapolation on sizes. I have already sent an email to "the great Taveller clean-up" asking them to add a simple extra line with an overall size LxWxH (Length x width x height) Note, this would not be total volume, just total minimum clear space around the vehicle.

For instance. On page 42 of military vehicles, is Main Tank, and appears to be an accurate illustration of an Abrams main battle tank.
It's volume as listed in the rules is 80 m3. Per the rules, that would be 8 displacement tons. But just by looking at the listing (and not the illustration) you don't get a very good idea of it's actual size (outside of 16 squares on a deck plan). Granted, most people have a good idea of the size of a tank, but if there was no illustration, and the listing was titled (medium combat walker) with the same 80 m3, it would be very hard to get an idea of it's overall size.

The actual size of the latest model of the M1 Abrams is 32.04 ft (9.77 m). It is 12 ft (3.7 m) wide and 8.0 ft (2.4 m) high. Those (total) dimensions work out to 86.75 m3, so the 80 m3 listed in the book is pretty darned accurate. But while anyone can google the size of any current vehicle, it would be helpful if Mongoose could simply add one more small line (LxWxH) when it comes to sci-fi/fantasy vehicles that do not exist in the real world.
The simple inclusion of that in the 2nd addition vehicle design guide would be an enormous help IMHO.
phavoc
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Re: Size of Vehicles (for deck plans)

Postby phavoc » Fri Jan 27, 2012 3:36 pm

The issue is that, for the most part, nothing has dimensions (LxWxH), it's all in Dtons. So you just make assumptions about the size and squeeze it into the available deck squares on your drawings.

But with the 20% 'wiggle room' for deckplans, it kind of works out.
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Re: Size of Vehicles (for deck plans)

Postby BFalcon » Fri Jan 27, 2012 5:43 pm

Jak Nazryth wrote: The simple inclusion of that in the 2nd addition vehicle design guide would be an enormous help IMHO.
Well, shipping volume is already in the new rules, but as m3 - it would be up to you to decide on the exact volume... after all, 2 different designs using the same volume hull could be two totally different sets of dimensions... one could be low, but wide, while the other taller and longer, but more narrow...
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Re: Size of Vehicles (for deck plans)

Postby PFVA63 » Fri Jan 27, 2012 8:50 pm

Hi,

One thing that's always thrown me off (though which may be covered by the "on page 4 of military vehicles, under step 1: Capacity - that to calculate displacement tons, for inside a star ship, that 10cubic meters equates to 1 ton" rule) is accounting for the structure inside the ship.

For instance, although I can't recall exactly what the Mongoose Rules say right now, in a lot of the previous versions of Traveller rules while a deck height was assumed to be about 3m high, clear head room was assumed to be less to allow for structure, piping, and other systems (which I think I've seen listed as something along the lines of maybe about 1/2 m in height).

As such, if I'm trying to carry a truck or other vehicle in a cargo bay on my ship and that vehicle has a height of more than 2.5m does that mean that this vehicle won't fit on a normal cargo deck, or is it assumed that a cargo deck might be a little higher than a normal accomodations or work space deck? Or does it mean that the actual space that a vehicle takes up inside a ship should assume an additional +0.5m or so on top to account for the aded ship's structure and stuff that will have to be resent?

As I noted about, maybe this is intended to be considered part of the reason why a carried vehicle's size is based on 10 m3 per dton instead of the 13.5-14 m3 per dton for the ship, but it does start to riase interesting issues especially when trying to lay out a ship with a big hangar or vehicle bay, as you begin to wonder if a single deck height is enough for some of these spaces.

Pat
Jak Nazryth
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Re: Size of Vehicles (for deck plans)

Postby Jak Nazryth » Sun Jan 29, 2012 11:56 pm

PVA63 brings up an issue I've been dealing about since 8th grade drafting class when I learned the proper way to create an elevation and cross section. My school friends and I started playing in the early 80's, and we designed what we thought was a cool 200 ton adventure ship with a great small craft, but when I made a basic attempt at drawing an elevation and cross-section of the ship, it looked like crap, so we redesigned it until it looked right. (We wanted it to look like a larger more aerodynamic version of a Y-wing)

You are right though. The finished floor-to-floor dimension is 3 meters for a standard ship deck. For us Americans, that's just about 10' (actually it's 9'-10"). You can assume around 2' for structure, leaving about 8' clear for habitable space. In most other rule systems like T20 and GURPS traveller, when drawing deck plans they allow for a 5-6% fudge factor. In my designs I state the cargo bays are 3 meters full and clear. I will also note that standard cargo crates can only fit if the bay is 3 meters full and clear. Just let the extra structure/tonnage in cargo spaces be part of the "fudge factor". Another issue is small craft bays. Really you will need a 2 deck space for most small craft hangers, or at least 1 1/2 decks. A 50 ton cutter in earlier version of Traveller is 2 story, but in Mongoose it's only 1 based on it's deck plans. Some traveller deck plans actually show it correctly with a small craft bay taking up 2 full decks, but many do not.
For larger vehicles though like trucks and ATV's, you definitely need a 1 1/2 or 2 deck cargo area depending on the vehicle. Just simply recalculate to tonnage based on a higher ceiling height. Most of my cargo spaces in my designs are either 1 1/2 to 2 levels, simply to allow them full flexibility. You'll get the same cargo space, with less floor area.

But in the long run, don't let the headroom issue hamper your designs or game.

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