Second Edition - Comments Wanted!

Discuss the Traveller RPG and its many settings
Chernobyl
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Re: Second Edition - Comments Wanted!

Postby Chernobyl » Wed Jan 18, 2012 4:49 pm

CSC needs to be updated.
Trade Codes for the entire Spinward Marches need to be audited by the core rule assumptions. I found hundreds of missing trade codes via a simple spreadsheet, using the UPPs of the various systems. I've posted the correct trade codes for the spinward marches in a thread here. I wouldn't mind seeing expanded UPPs used (a la T4, Marc Miller's Traveller).
Whatever you do wind up publishing, for goodness sake, PLEASE edit it and playtest it.
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Rikki Tikki Traveller
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Re: Second Edition - Comments Wanted!

Postby Rikki Tikki Traveller » Wed Jan 18, 2012 5:18 pm

If you are going to do reworks, then CSC (more non-weapons and consistant costs) and High Guard (MORE of everything including Civilian Capital Ships!) would be at the top of my list of books I would like to see updated.

Thanks for Asking!
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Treebore
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Re: Second Edition - Comments Wanted!

Postby Treebore » Wed Jan 18, 2012 6:30 pm

They all sound good to me.
nats
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Re: Second Edition - Comments Wanted!

Postby nats » Wed Jan 18, 2012 8:01 pm

The best thing you could do is possibly do like Paizo and produce a Beginners Box for Traveller including basic cut down rules, character, ship and monster tokens, grid maps, ref screen, DM guide, some pre gen characters/creatures, a couple of good adventures, and some dice.

I would buy anymore books unless they were very well illustrated and high quality books with no mistakes. I dont buy any MgT Traveller books anymore - too frustrating. I am more into D&D now where you get good stuff.

But if you are looking for a new path to go down a Beginners Box could be a good thing to do.
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Jak Nazryth
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Re: Second Edition - Comments Wanted!

Postby Jak Nazryth » Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:53 am

As a forum, I like sharing ideas and experiences with fellow gamer's.
As a core game mechanic, how tasks, combat, skills, time to complete tasks, etc... are resolved, I love it. I even use some of the concepts in the fantasy game I run. With some minor tweaks, I think the core game mechanics can be even better.

But I honestly have to say that I don't see myself purchasing any more mongoose products. They are void of oversight and coordination. Rules are not followed, or change on a whim, some of the making absolutely no sense at all. (In high Guard the pulse laser is uses as a point defense laser because of it's short range. But why would ANY military use a pulse laser which is at a -2 to hit at its optimum range (close) but who's primary purpose is to shoot down missiles (per the rules... just as they are about to hit the ship) which places the missile in the "adjacent" range catagory... giving the pulse laser a total of a -4 to hit one missile... and it's very purpose is to knock down incoming missiles! And since missiles are now "instant kills" if you hit them, why does a point defense laser need to do 2d6 damage anyway??? When the offensive laser only does a paltry 1d6 damage... and don't even get me started on the price between the two.
Does anyone at Mongoose proof read anything they farm out to 3rd party vendors? Do you guys even play test your rules or have critical thinking sessions to make sure some of your rules even make sense?
Here are a few problem children.
CSC
Robot
Vehicles
High Guard
Cybernetics
Psion
and especially...
Merchants and Cruisers in about the worst I have ever seen with incomplete deck plans, weapon clusters and triple turrets that break your own rules; horrible beyond sub-par graphics, and some deck plans that looks like a 7th grader playing a practical joke.. literally one ship is drawn exactly like a giant phallus (page 46 and 47). Who designs this kind of simplistic crap!? Maybe it was a funny joke by the author on how much players were getting screwed out of their money.
I have spent too much money as it is on Mongoose products. I have enough fall back material from GURPS, T20, and other proven systems that I bring in rules and concepts to patch the holes.

As a pure business, Mongoose is horrible at coordination, proofing, and general lack of care on many of it's products.
I won't buy any 2nd addition rules. But my advice is to completely redo the whole thing.
Give refunds or a really good deal on the 2nd addition rules to players who trade in their 1st addition rules as a replacement.
Actually read and cross reference the stuff you print. Actually make sure the 3rd party guys who produce some of your products absolutely understand the rules, prices of equipment, and make sure it matches EVERYTHING else. The cost differences between the Core book, CSC, and Cybernetics are very dramatic... it's a crap shoot on which item is priced right.
It's already been mentioned, but the addition of a simply word to an illustration like... "TL 13 Laser Rifle with scope" would be so simple, cheep, but so helpful.

I'm not a scientist, NASA engineer, or naval designer but I am an architect, so I pay very close attention to design, form, function, and purpose of design.
I think a 20 ton bridge on a 300 ton ship is absolutely ridiculous. I have the deck plans in autocad to prove it. Small ship... HUGE bridge, lots of wasted space. Every single one of my players that saw my first version of their 300 ton adventure ship said... "Good God, why is the bridge so big?". So I have installed one of many house rules (based on earlier versions). I think Mongoose should go back to the 2% rule with a 10 ton minimum on standard bridge, and 5 ton on a compact bridge. (There are many Mongoose drawn deck plans where the bridge isn't even close to matching the size of the bridge on the specified in the spreadsheet format, so even your own designers understand what I'm talking about. The original Scout has a 2 ton bridge.
I also use the GURPS concept of crew stations. I use 1 crew station per ton. That gives you a 1.5mx1.5m or 5'x5' area for control console and chair, plus a 1.5mx1.5m or 5'x5' space behind for circulation. So a 10 ton bridge can have up to 10 crew stations. When designing a ship, you can plan the size of your bridge based on how many crew stations you might need. Between 5 and 10 crew stations is more than enough to run a 400, 600, or even up to a 1000 ton ship depending on it's function. Command bridges are a different matter. I can see an over-sized bridge for commanders, officers, and other VIP's to stalk about making sure the junior officers are on the ball.
I also use the GURPS version of a generic crew station and specialized crew station. Each station can multi-task up to 4 different tasks. You can do more than 1 task, but each task gives you an additional -1. But a task specific station can only do 1 thing, but you get a +1 to that task. That is why a scout ship only had 2 crew stations. Each station could do more than 1 task at a time if pressed.
Other ideas are a bit radical for ship design which involves separates the tonnage between staterooms, common space, and life support. Because when you trade a 4 ton stateroom, for 4 tons of cargo space, if you try to actually draw it on the deck plan, the stateroom itself is really only 2 tons or 3 tons depending on how you interpret the rules, which are again vague. So when you take out a "4 ton" stateroom, and plug in a cargo pod, you only actually get a 2 or 3 ton cargo pod, because part of the state room is actually common space. I know it works on a spread sheet, but not on blue prints. I would base the common area max population, not number of staterooms. I would also base the life support base on max population. Again, I design my ships like a flying hotel, or office building. I have never served in the Navy, but several of my immediate family have great stories of life aboard subs and aircraft carriers. You can double or triple bunks for the military in a stateroom (and sometimes hot rack). You just need the identify the proper tonnage for life support as a function of crew capacity, not number of staterooms. I also place my life support in a separate room/mechanical space usually near engineering.
I know there are plenty of Traveller guys who prefer larger ships, spread sheets only ship designs, and never even use miniature or even grid map for gaming or even combat. But that's just me. I like smaller player-sized ships, shown at scale with lots of miniatures, maps, etc...
Anyway, SORRY for the rant. Reading all the earlier posts got my blood pressure up.
I hope I gave a few ideas within all my beotching and moaning.
But I'm much better now! :)
Mongoose, please take some of my hostility and bitterness toward many of your products as a very disappointed and frustrated customer. Please clean up your product going forward.
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Re: Second Edition - Comments Wanted!

Postby Treebore » Thu Jan 19, 2012 5:04 am

nats wrote:
I would buy anymore books unless they were very well illustrated and high quality books with no mistakes. I dont buy any MgT Traveller books anymore - too frustrating. I am more into D&D now where you get good stuff.

.
Last time I checked, and it was a good while ago, D&D had over 100 pages of errata. I'll take Mongoose over that anytime.
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Re: Second Edition - Comments Wanted!

Postby Jeraa » Thu Jan 19, 2012 6:10 am

Last time I checked, and it was a good while ago, D&D had over 100 pages of errata. I'll take Mongoose over that anytime.
Well, assuming it was for 3.0/3.5 Dungeons and Dragons, with 56 books (not counting any Forgotten Realms or Eberron specific books), that is only an average of less then 2 pages a book. Thats not bad.

100 pages sounds like a lot of errata until you see just how much content that errata is spread over.

(I have no idea about 4th edition stuff, so I don't know how much errata there is for that.)
Tarkin
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Re: Second Edition - Comments Wanted!

Postby Tarkin » Thu Jan 19, 2012 7:44 am

As somebody who just purchased High Guard and Central Supply Catalog, it's very distressing to read about the problems with the books. Does the Traveller line even have an editor?

I really would love to purchase more Mongoose products, but these sorts of problems are keeping me at bay.
evo
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Re: Second Edition - Comments Wanted!

Postby evo » Thu Jan 19, 2012 8:45 am

Agree with Gamerdude, especially for this part :
(...) how about you take ALL the books (including core) and get all the rules to match, then rules are only found in one place (as opposed to in several places).

Personally, I would love all the careers and specialties in one book (with the tables muster out etc) and then all the crunch rules goodness in separate books - be a big help when people are rolling up characters.
Besides imprecisions, mistakes, and a lack of clarity, the bad point about Mongoose products is the layout & illustrations : no color, no hardcover, no serious binding, no attempt on the form. The books are arid, and... amateur. Look at other companies, most of their products are shiny (© Firefly). Thus, before to produce something else, hire :
- freelance illustrators
- a designer for the layout
(- a native translator)

Personally, I saw the lack of professionalism of your products, and I decided to buy those that interested me on the second hand market. You need to make efforts in terms of form and content (ability to synthesize).
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Re: Second Edition - Comments Wanted!

Postby rust » Thu Jan 19, 2012 10:57 am

Jak Nazryth wrote: But I honestly have to say that I don't see myself purchasing any more mongoose products. They are void of oversight and coordination. ...
I see your point, and agree with almost all you wrote. In fact, the
reason I did not propose a world building book or a colony book -
two subjects I am very interested in - in the neighbouring thread is
that I have too many doubts that Mongoose could get them right,
and I would not want to waste any more money on questionable
material like Robots or Vehicles. In the end it is easier for me to
adapt and modify good rules from other games or other versions
of Traveller for my science fiction settings than to attempt to fix
Mongoose Traveller's all too often broken rules. The excellent Ou-
ter Veil setting from Spica convinced me to give Mongoose Travel-
ler a last chance, but after that I will be gone from this system -
and certainly not return until things have improved a lot.
Somebody
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Re: Second Edition - Comments Wanted!

Postby Somebody » Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:46 am

Highguard needs a 2nd Ed badly:


Unified construction system for everything from a speederbike to a dreadnaught would be nice. Not this "five systems and counting" we currently get.

And power consumption, effects of power output on fuel consumption and maybe rules for "tracking based on reactor power". Even if only as an add-on rules


If you do a CSC 2nd Ed please split it:

Gunbunny Edition with all the guns (Centfold-style foldout pictures optional)

Gears Edition with the normal gear. In this version please use a short, graphic-enhanced format similar to the one uses in the old DGP (Mega)Travellers Digest at least for the "SciFi" stuff - helps people visualize the stuff a LOT
Gee4orce
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Re: Second Edition - Comments Wanted!

Postby Gee4orce » Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:22 pm

I'd like to see these - but only as free PDF updates to those of us who bought the originals
msprange
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Re: Second Edition - Comments Wanted!

Postby msprange » Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:42 pm

Just a note here - if (_if_) we do a second edition of any book, we won't be just tidying things up and altering a few stats. That is what we would do with a reprint.

I am talking about a complete re-write, from stem to stern. Not necessarily altering the mechanics wholesale (it needs to retain compatibility with the rest of the line for a start...) but we would certainly inspect each and every rule to see if it is found wanting, replacing or repairing as necessary, and taking every opportunity to add new and useful material.
Matthew Sprange

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AndrewW
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Re: Second Edition - Comments Wanted!

Postby AndrewW » Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:44 pm

Guess it's time to point to an old thread I did a little over three years ago, describing a lot of the stuff that has been mentioned for a new High Guard:

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=39483
rust
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Re: Second Edition - Comments Wanted!

Postby rust » Thu Jan 19, 2012 5:18 pm

AndrewW wrote:Guess it's time to point to an old thread I did a little over three years ago, describing a lot of the stuff that has been mentioned for a new High Guard ...
I would almost certainly buy such a supplement, but only as a the
second, updated version of a PDF.
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Re: Second Edition - Comments Wanted!

Postby phavoc » Thu Jan 19, 2012 6:58 pm

msprange wrote:Just a note here - if (_if_) we do a second edition of any book, we won't be just tidying things up and altering a few stats. That is what we would do with a reprint.

I am talking about a complete re-write, from stem to stern. Not necessarily altering the mechanics wholesale (it needs to retain compatibility with the rest of the line for a start...) but we would certainly inspect each and every rule to see if it is found wanting, replacing or repairing as necessary, and taking every opportunity to add new and useful material.
High Guard could definitely benefit from a re-write. Lots of people have tossed out ideas, and I think one way to keep it "canon" is to list some new proposed ideas as options. That way the info is there for people who want to use it.

I'd also like to see you guys build future ships using spreadsheets or something. That way at least the ships would, I dunno, follow the rules you state? You could also release the sheet to the community, or even charge for it off the Mongoose site. I'm betting a lot of people would be interested in having something more automated to help with designs. Flipping through 20-30 pages and multiple books to design a starship is not exactly an enjoyable endeavor.
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Re: Second Edition - Comments Wanted!

Postby JRoss » Thu Jan 19, 2012 7:15 pm

Robot: Explain the "Slot" system. The current system does not tell players whether Manipulators and Legs give additional slots to the robot or whether they use up slots from the Frame and Unit.

The propulsion system needs work. A Size 5 Tall Frame with a Size 3 Unit, Size 5 Arms and Size 5 Bipedal Legs cannot move. The legs do not provide enough lift for the body unless the Lightweight Frame option is taken. This totally precludes giant mecha.

Do Manipulators come in pairs? I say this because Legs specifically come in single units. However, a Size 4 Leg has 5 slots and a Size 5 Leg has 6 slots while the Size 4 Arm has 8 slots and the Size 5 Arm has 10 slots. This indicates that they are "bigger," as do the Mass comparisons. The book does not state this either way, so it would be very helpful to see a clarification.

The Weapon Frame entry has a small heading over a table. This makes it appear as if it is part the Biological Frame entry. It is somewhat jarring to be reading about biological robots, and to then read, "this frame is very rarely used for intelligent robots and is not encouraged for Player Characters unless they are ready for a major roleplaying challenge."

Finally, the character creation system seems a little clunky. It can take hours to create a robot when using the "credit" option. It is not explained how players are supposed to use the robot careers. Do they purchase equipment with their credits, then take terms equivalent to their unspent cash? I'd like to see a system of creating an android with mostly dice rolls, similar to the Biological Frame. The Biological Frame would benefit from a random Edu, Int and Soc Characteristic table, for players and referees who do not have the time to bother with the balance between money and terms.
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Stainless
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Re: Second Edition - Comments Wanted!

Postby Stainless » Thu Jan 19, 2012 7:52 pm

I've only skimmed the replies here. Yes, sounds good. But I'm curious. If you're willing to go to all this trouble, what is your aversion to a 2nd edition of the core rules? That's what I'd be most interested in, because as that book is the foundation, getting it right is most important.
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Re: Second Edition - Comments Wanted!

Postby AndrewW » Thu Jan 19, 2012 8:14 pm

phavoc wrote:I'd also like to see you guys build future ships using spreadsheets or something. That way at least the ships would, I dunno, follow the rules you state? You could also release the sheet to the community, or even charge for it off the Mongoose site. I'm betting a lot of people would be interested in having something more automated to help with designs. Flipping through 20-30 pages and multiple books to design a starship is not exactly an enjoyable endeavor.
Actually, a spreadsheet is used though don't think what's used is usually automated, more a fill in. That said in at least one case one of the authors did use an available automated one, but the ships that created had a lot of problems...

Most of the ship coming out do follow the rules.
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Re: Second Edition - Comments Wanted!

Postby AndrewW » Thu Jan 19, 2012 8:15 pm

JRoss wrote:Robot: Explain the "Slot" system. The current system does not tell players whether Manipulators and Legs give additional slots to the robot or whether they use up slots from the Frame and Unit.
This one has been officially answered on the forum, they take slots.

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