Secrets of the Ancients hardback mising something?

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Re: Secrets of the Ancients hardback mising something?

Postby msprange » Tue Dec 13, 2011 9:53 am

Stainless wrote:I'm afraid without photos, it ain't true :lol: We want to see the poor shmoe being kicked out the door (or walking the plank). 8)
While there is a certain amount of humour in that, I don't think it is the sort of thing we can do :)
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Re: Secrets of the Ancients hardback mising something?

Postby SJE » Tue Dec 13, 2011 11:40 am

Looking at the credits in the PDF sample file on drivethruRPG.com

http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product_i ... s_id=96625

It lists Editor as Nick Robinson, Layout as "Nick Robinson and J Guilt" and Proofreading as Charlotte Law. So I'm not sure if missing out a chapter is an editing, layout or proofreading failure, but I imagine it's one of those 3 who have left. I hope Nick still has a job.

SJE
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Re: Secrets of the Ancients hardback mising something?

Postby DigitalMage » Tue Dec 13, 2011 12:00 pm

Whether fairly or not many people have a perception of Mongoose as having poor quality control over their RPG books. In order to help combat that I wonder whether Mongoose may look to releasing books in PDF format first, allow a couple of weeks for customers to spot errata or massive mistakes, then work to correct any mistakes before getting the physical book published.

I recognise that it may be felt that releasing the PDF a month or so before hardcopy may damage hardcopy sales, but I am not sure that would happen, and if it did it may be a necessary evil in order to ensure a decent level of quality in the first print run of the hard copy.

Any thoughts?
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Re: Secrets of the Ancients hardback mising something?

Postby rust » Tue Dec 13, 2011 12:35 pm

DigitalMage wrote: I recognise that it may be felt that releasing the PDF a month or so before hardcopy may damage hardcopy sales, but I am not sure that would happen, and if it did it may be a necessary evil in order to ensure a decent level of quality in the first print run of the hard copy.

Any thoughts?
An interesting idea if one is aiming for quality, but a bad
idea if one is aiming for income ...
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Re: Secrets of the Ancients hardback mising something?

Postby tneva82 » Tue Dec 13, 2011 12:41 pm

rust wrote:
DigitalMage wrote: I recognise that it may be felt that releasing the PDF a month or so before hardcopy may damage hardcopy sales, but I am not sure that would happen, and if it did it may be a necessary evil in order to ensure a decent level of quality in the first print run of the hard copy.

Any thoughts?
An interesting idea if one is aiming for quality, but a bad
idea if one is aiming for income ...
That assumes sales of pdf harms hard copies rather than players simply waiting for whichever version they prefer.

You could say actually this could INCREASE hard copy sales due to less errors...

However whether they would have time to correct and print in this way is something to consider.
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Re: Secrets of the Ancients hardback mising something?

Postby Jean » Tue Dec 13, 2011 12:58 pm

I have heard that SJG does release to PDF first and then print. I admit that releasing Federation PD20M caught about three typos that were corrected before being translated to GURPS Federation and I regard that as a Good Thing.
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Re: Secrets of the Ancients hardback mising something?

Postby DigitalMage » Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:31 pm

Green Ronin does (or at least did it) too, I know I picked up the PDF of Warriors and Warlocks a couple of months before the hardcopy.

Also I used to only buy a hardcopy if I had bought and read the PDF - this meant I would never have unread books sitting on my shelves taking up space. In this instance an earlier PDF would mean an earlier hardcopy sale. :)
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Re: Secrets of the Ancients hardback mising something?

Postby IraShaine1972 » Tue Dec 13, 2011 3:32 pm

SJE wrote:Looking at the credits in the PDF sample file on drivethruRPG.com

http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product_i ... s_id=96625

It lists Editor as Nick Robinson, Layout as "Nick Robinson and J Guilt" and Proofreading as Charlotte Law. So I'm not sure if missing out a chapter is an editing, layout or proofreading failure, but I imagine it's one of those 3 who have left. I hope Nick still has a job.

SJE
So you are telling me that 3 people were somehow in a position to catch this and it slipped by them all??????

How did MGP decide which one to let go? Did they draw straws?
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Re: Secrets of the Ancients hardback mising something?

Postby SJE » Tue Dec 13, 2011 3:51 pm

I don't know anything about how Mongoose assign the responsibility of those 3 roles, I'm just looking at the most relevant credits listed in the book- perhaps the proofreader or the editor only see the original text files and it's Layout that assembles them in the book for the printer. Or perhaps Layout included Chapter 6 and the printer and proofreader missed it in the hardcopy version.

But it seems the responsibility for including all the chapters and reviewing the final version might lay with one of those 3 roles.
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Re: Secrets of the Ancients hardback mising something?

Postby rust » Tue Dec 13, 2011 5:06 pm

tneva82 wrote: That assumes sales of pdf harms hard copies ...
I suspect it does if the PDF is published before the hardcopy.
It normally takes less than a week until a PDF can be down-
loaded for free from one of the usual sites, and anyone with
access to a printer can then create his own free printed copy.
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Re: Secrets of the Ancients hardback mising something?

Postby IanBruntlett » Tue Dec 13, 2011 5:14 pm

Given the goodwill in the community for Mongoose, maybe Mg should capitalise on the goodwill and attention to detail that some of its customer's have?

Perhaps by sending out "test copies (paper)" of upcoming Mg products to a select few would help improve the books and act as insurance against more embarrassing mistakes being made?
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Re: Secrets of the Ancients hardback mising something?

Postby lastbesthope » Tue Dec 13, 2011 6:56 pm

msprange wrote:
Stainless wrote:I'm afraid without photos, it ain't true :lol: We want to see the poor shmoe being kicked out the door (or walking the plank). 8)
While there is a certain amount of humour in that, I don't think it is the sort of thing we can do :)
Could be worse, Ted Chang could still be in charge of "morale" at Mongoose :shock:

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Re: Secrets of the Ancients hardback mising something?

Postby Treebore » Tue Dec 13, 2011 10:25 pm

rust wrote:
DigitalMage wrote: I recognise that it may be felt that releasing the PDF a month or so before hardcopy may damage hardcopy sales, but I am not sure that would happen, and if it did it may be a necessary evil in order to ensure a decent level of quality in the first print run of the hard copy.

Any thoughts?
An interesting idea if one is aiming for quality, but a bad
idea if one is aiming for income ...
Everything I have read says that is completely untrue, PDF sales have helped increase print sales. Even Kenzer has finally come around to the truth of this and have been using the PDF pre print module to help with editing issues, as well as increase their print sales on their Hacklopedia of Beasts and now their new Hackmaster players handbook, and Paizo continues to like the effect of PDF's on their sales.

Even Neil Gaiman has jumped on board the free or very cheap PDF bandwagon because of the jump in print sales he experienced when he started doing it. Just a couple of years ago you would not have seen his books offered up as free PDF's, but now you do:

http://our-free-ebooks.blogspot.com/200 ... ction.html
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Re: Secrets of the Ancients hardback mising something?

Postby atpollard » Wed Dec 14, 2011 3:04 am

I have a vauge recolection that Mongoose chooses to issue books first to support 'bricks and mortar' game stores.
I think that it is a corporate philosophy/vision thing.
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Re: Secrets of the Ancients hardback mising something?

Postby tneva82 » Wed Dec 14, 2011 5:57 am

rust wrote:
tneva82 wrote: That assumes sales of pdf harms hard copies ...
I suspect it does if the PDF is published before the hardcopy.
It normally takes less than a week until a PDF can be down-
loaded for free from one of the usual sites, and anyone with
access to a printer can then create his own free printed copy.
The ones that pirate them for free won't pay a dime anyway whether hardback is released month later or year earlier...

However there's no reason to suspect that those who prefer pdf's won't just wait for the pdf now and those who prefer hardback wouldn't just wait for hardback if pdf is released first.

Also is the margin of profit really that much bigger for mongoose with hardbacks...Printing!=free, shipping!=free...
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Re: Secrets of the Ancients hardback mising something?

Postby delrom5 » Wed Dec 14, 2011 9:38 pm

At Dragonmeet, Nick was demoing Ant Assault, but when we had a natter, it turns out that he already quit mongoose for a life on the freelance seas.

[quote="SJE"]Looking at the credits in the PDF sample file on drivethruRPG.com

http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product_i ... s_id=96625

It lists Editor as Nick Robinson, Layout as "Nick Robinson and J Guilt" and Proofreading as Charlotte Law. So I'm not sure if missing out a chapter is an editing, layout or proofreading failure, but I imagine it's one of those 3 who have left. I hope Nick still has a job.

SJE[/quote]

The question that should be asked is how can the qc process be improved? SJG have their playtest groups. Could something similar also be possible for Mongoose?
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Re: Secrets of the Ancients hardback mising something?

Postby AndrewW » Wed Dec 14, 2011 10:31 pm

delrom5 wrote:The question that should be asked is how can the qc process be improved? SJG have their playtest groups. Could something similar also be possible for Mongoose?
Mongoose Publishing does do playtesting, but generally those are .doc files not stuff already for print or anything, so anything after the layout process and such wouldn't be caught that way.
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Re: Secrets of the Ancients hardback mising something?

Postby Nathan Brazil » Wed Dec 14, 2011 10:52 pm

Has anyone bought the PDF at Drivethru? Is it in the improper format or the corrected format?
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Re: Secrets of the Ancients hardback mising something?

Postby IraShaine1972 » Thu Dec 15, 2011 2:35 pm

You can get the PDF free right off of this site. It is 100% complete.
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Re: Secrets of the Ancients hardback mising something?

Postby delrom5 » Fri Dec 16, 2011 12:52 pm

[quote]Mongoose Publishing does do playtesting, but generally those are .doc files not stuff already for print or anything, so anything after the layout process and such wouldn't be caught that way.[/quote]

As the Ancients book was playtested prior to layout, where the errors occurred, should the playtest documents instead be distributed as preliminary layouts PDFs so that missing chunks of text can also be detected?

With a sign up programme, couldn't the PDFs then be watermarked, perhaps with the individual playtester e-mails so that leaked PDFs could be traced?

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