CSC: Things that annoy me.

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Dracous
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CSC: Things that annoy me.

Postby Dracous » Fri Nov 18, 2011 1:15 am

I like the Central supply Catalogue, but I hate inconsistent terminology or rules.

The one that is griping me today is DSAP rounds for rifles.
On Page 51 I am told:
"Discarding Sabot Armour Piercing (DSAP) Rounds: The term DSAP
is used to distinguish small arms ammunition from the functionally
similar APDS, an artillery/tank gun ammunition type. DSAP is a
more advanced armour-piercing round which can be used only from
high-velocity longarms such as rifles, carbines and gauss rifles and
their larger support equivalents. DSAP Rounds convert a rifle into a
Super-AP weapon."

Checking the rule on Super AP on page 50 gives me:
"Super-AP Super-AP rounds ignore a number of points of armour equal to
double the number of dice they roll for damage. So a weapon doing
3d6–2 damage using Super-AP ignores the first six points of armour
the round encounters."

And to see which weapons I can use DSAP, I am told on page 52:
" Rifles and Carbines can deliver HE, AP, DSAP, chemical, NFD and
flechette rounds."

So it all seems pretty clear, until I read the description for an ACR (a weapon listed as doing 4D damage) on page 76 , which tells me:
" Heavy ACR. ammunition is not compatible
with other weapons except support versions of the same family.
Normal 9mm ACR. ammunition has a SAP effect, ignoring up to 2
points of armour. DSAP (Discarding Sabot) rounds have a full-AP
effect and ignore the first four points of armour they encounter."

I don't like seeing rules clearly contradict each other like this. I am hoping this gets fixed in errata. (My search of the Mongoose site has not turned up any errata.)

In the meantime, I am going to mark up my PDF to remind me to ignore the descriptions of DSAP on page 76. I also need to tell my players who have purchased this book to do the same.

And unfortunately, that is not the only issue I have seen with CSC.
Hey Mongoose, any word on when you might release some errata for Central Supply Catalogue?
Dracous
Vargrz
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Re: CSC: Things that annoy me.

Postby Vargrz » Fri Nov 18, 2011 3:11 am

Errata would be nice.

My complaint regarding the CSC is that it is mostly overly defined weapon choices and modifications and not enough non-combat gear.

Part of the fun of playing in the "Far Future" is the opportunity to deploy cool gizmos and gadgets as part of a plot device, or to see how creative players can be in employing gear toward problem solving.
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Re: CSC: Things that annoy me.

Postby apoc527 » Fri Nov 18, 2011 7:04 am

I have worked up a nice little progression of ammo types by TL using the text in the early parts of CSC while generally ignoring the weapon specific rules. Here it is:


For conventional rifle firearms, Ball ammunition is sufficient to achieve SAP. Full AP can be achieved through the use of DSAP ammo (x10 cost) at TL8.

For ETC/ACR rifle firearms, ball ammunition provides SAP. Full AP can be achieved with Anti-Armor rounds (x3 cost). Super-AP can be obtained by using expensive DSAP rounds at TL10 (x10 cost). For ETC/ACP pistol/SMG firearms, Ball ammunition provides no inherent armor piercing effect. Anti-armor rounds (x3 cost) can be used and provide SAP. Full AP can be achieved with expensive DSAP rounds (x10 cost).

For all gauss weapons, standard rounds produce an AP effect. Special anti-armor rounds (x3 cost) can be used to achieve Super-AP at TL13+.

(ETC = electrothermal chemical, or what propels ACRs. ACP = house rule "advanced combat pistol" or a TL10 handgun using similar technology to the TL10 ACRs)
-Apoc527
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Re: CSC: Things that annoy me.

Postby msprange » Fri Nov 18, 2011 1:32 pm

Just to let you all know, this is certainly something we are looking at.
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Vargrz
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Re: CSC: Things that annoy me.

Postby Vargrz » Fri Nov 18, 2011 5:22 pm

Are you looking at posting errata, or at supply information that is not an "arms dealer catalog" but more of a "sic-fi Sears and Roebuck?"
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Re: CSC: Things that annoy me.

Postby alex_greene » Fri Nov 18, 2011 5:42 pm

Posting essential, non-weapon listings would be very useful, and give that far future feel that players really want for the game.

I posted an article on clothing and stuff for Signs & Portents. If Mongoose needs someone to write up about foodstuffs, fabrics and survival equipment, you could ask me.

A suggestion. Keep the term "Central Supply Catalogue" for just the non-combat gear. Exploration gear, hazardous environment suits, vacc suits, survival equipment, toolkits, listings of robots derived from the Robots book, medical and engineering equipment, scientific tools of the far future (handheld GCMS, mineral assay kit for miners and belters), comms units, a look at possible internets of the far future, and service industries (e.g. the TAS' online TASList service, available to all, with a premium service for paid-up members, or the Blacklist of skipped ships so repo agents can keep apprised of any stolen craft in the port).

And where would you put all the combat gear and armour? In its own supplement, "Armoury" (or perhaps "Arsenal & Armoury").
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Re: CSC: Things that annoy me.

Postby Vargrz » Sat Nov 19, 2011 2:23 am

Alex,
I think you have a great idea there.

Central SUpply - non weapon gear

Armory - Weapons

I was also relieved to hear I wasn't the only one who thought that non-weapon gear added to the game!
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Re: CSC: Things that annoy me.

Postby alex_greene » Sat Nov 19, 2011 7:41 am

Vargrz wrote:Alex,
I think you have a great idea there.

Central SUpply - non weapon gear

Armory - Weapons

I was also relieved to hear I wasn't the only one who thought that non-weapon gear added to the game!
I'm also thinking of Mongoose, and that they can get two books out of one solid concept, which means more revenue from book sales. :)

On a serious note, separating out the gear from the weapons allows Mongoose to go through the long lists of kit and equipment from various other supplements and books and bring them all together in one place, so a Referee or player doesn't have to reach for their copy of Scoundrel to get the rules for densitometer weave and the K-19 ‘Karp-Dog’ Assistance Drone from Merchant Prince, then scrounge around for their copy of Scout for the TL 14 Translation Unit. They can look them all up in the one book.

A book which they may well have to update once every now and then (or design as "Book 1, Book 2" and so on).
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Re: CSC: Things that annoy me.

Postby Vargrz » Sat Nov 19, 2011 11:36 pm

I'm also thinking of Mongoose, and that they can get two books out of one solid concept, which means more revenue from book sales.

On a serious note, separating out the gear from the weapons allows Mongoose to go through the long lists of kit and equipment from various other supplements and books and bring them all together in one place, so a Referee or player doesn't have to reach for their copy of Scoundrel to get the rules for densitometer weave and the K-19 ‘Karp-Dog’ Assistance Drone from Merchant Prince, then scrounge around for their copy of Scout for the TL 14 Translation Unit. They can look them all up in the one book.

A book which they may well have to update once every now and then (or design as "Book 1, Book 2" and so on).

I think this hits the nail on the head! As a Referee it would be awesome! As a player it would be very useful. I am also all for Mongoose putting out successful products!
evo
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Re: CSC: Things that annoy me.

Postby evo » Sun Nov 20, 2011 9:59 am

Agree. One Ring to rule them all.
:mrgreen:
AndrewW
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Re: CSC: Things that annoy me.

Postby AndrewW » Sun Nov 20, 2011 10:10 am

evo wrote:Agree. One Ring to rule them all.
:mrgreen:
Or one book to rule them all, as the case may be.
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Re: CSC: Things that annoy me.

Postby Vargrz » Sun Nov 20, 2011 6:00 pm

Aren't we talking, "Two books to rule them all."?
rust
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Re: CSC: Things that annoy me.

Postby rust » Sun Nov 20, 2011 9:05 pm

Hmmm, the CSC. I really like it, but it has quite a lot of entries
which could be improved with little effort, from certain weapon
ranges up to my personal favourite, an excellent example of an
author's ability to confuse the readers - see page 162:
Advanced Base, Unpressurized (TL8): A modular, pressurized
shelter ...
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Re: CSC: Things that annoy me.

Postby Egil Skallagrimsson » Sun Nov 20, 2011 11:06 pm

Go away for 3 weeks, and come back to find the CSC is still getting flak, and not from me. :roll:

Yep, what was clearly going to be a defining book of for MGT should have been done properly first time round, probably when the core book was being written so that the authors of csc wouldn't start re-writing the rules. Not sure about creating two seperate books (have pity on the poor player!), though it would be good to see a lot of the non-combat gear consolidated. To be honest, publishing the weapon errata would obviate the need for anyone to buy the book.

In regards to combat items, I ended up writing the weapons list for MTU, and rarely feel the need to consult that part of the csc.

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Re: CSC: Things that annoy me.

Postby Easterner » Mon Nov 21, 2011 12:16 am

If you want to get annoyed look at grenade prices.

A frag grenade is Cr30 in basic set but Cr150 in CSC. The RAM version Cr450 and launched version Cr300. Yet a Panzerfaust is Cr200 and does 7d6 damage vs 5d6 of both frags.

Apparently the CSC raised prices on grenades by a factor of 5. :roll:
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Re: CSC: Things that annoy me.

Postby Jame Rowe » Mon Nov 21, 2011 12:17 am

A good while ago I wrote up a list of items out of the books I had so they could make sense to me. I generally go with that.
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Re: CSC: Things that annoy me.

Postby rust » Mon Nov 21, 2011 12:31 am

Easterner wrote: Apparently the CSC raised prices on grenades by a factor of 5. :roll:
Well, all those characters used up such a lot of frag grenades
that the production facilities could no longer satisfy the stea-
dily increasing demand, and now frag grenades have become
extremely rare and expensive ... :shock:
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Re: CSC: Things that annoy me.

Postby Vargrz » Tue Nov 22, 2011 2:24 am

I never worry too much about the prices of things! Partially because the availability of an item (in other words is it reasonable for the Players to find it), determines how much it will cost in my campaigns! Sometimes an item won't be available at all if the location is remote or restrictive.

In town here you might find your favorite item isn't in stock at any price. Even something as basic as your favorite ice cream.

In the Far Future, you still have supply and demand, production controls, distribution issues, and legality to deal with.

For shady characters, you can always as the local "gentlemen" if anything has fallen out the back of a truck lately!
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Re: CSC: Things that annoy me.

Postby alex_greene » Tue Nov 22, 2011 10:50 am

Vargrz wrote:I never worry too much about the prices of things! Partially because the availability of an item (in other words is it reasonable for the Players to find it), determines how much it will cost in my campaigns! Sometimes an item won't be available at all if the location is remote or restrictive.

In town here you might find your favorite item isn't in stock at any price. Even something as basic as your favorite ice cream.

In the Far Future, you still have supply and demand, production controls, distribution issues, and legality to deal with.

For shady characters, you can always as the local "gentlemen" if anything has fallen out the back of a truck lately!
Actually, that is where Broker skill can come in, because a truly creative Referee can use that skill in a number of ways, other than in trade.

Scope out the local market for goods in most, and least, demand
Broker, Intelligence, 10-60 hours, Routine(+2)


Market your goods as being of higher demand than they actually are
Broker, Intelligence, 10-60 minutes, Routine(+2)


Stuff like that.

Also, be ready to make up local prices on the spot. Ammo for ratting guns on one planet might be dirt cheap, you can get consignments of ratting gun ammo for less than the price of a consignment of soap; but on the planet Hamelin ...
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Re: CSC: Things that annoy me.

Postby Vargrz » Thu Nov 24, 2011 3:09 am

I agree that that is a fun part of the adventures to watch the players beg, barter, or steal the gear they need!

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