SMG's ?

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Wolfsbane
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SMG's ?

Postby Wolfsbane » Sun Oct 16, 2011 11:04 pm

Submachineguns were a stable of OT, where do they appear in MT ?
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far-trader
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Re: SMG's ?

Postby far-trader » Sun Oct 16, 2011 11:37 pm

I know there was a big looooooong thread on this a while back :)

...unfortunately the board rebuild seems to mean the search function only looks back to the rebuild a couple months ago. So we get to rehash all the same material again. Hurrah! :(

Unless someone else can find it...
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Re: SMG's ?

Postby far-trader » Sun Oct 16, 2011 11:47 pm

Vaguely, from memory (zips up nomex suit)...

Core Rules Autopistol is a SMG (not...)

Mercenary Carbine is a SMG (again not...)

Central Supply Catalog (finally) includes SMGs (so I'm told, don't have it though)
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Re: SMG's ?

Postby Wolfsbane » Sun Oct 16, 2011 11:54 pm

I also don't have the CSC, it never made it over to my local stores and the price is mighty high (HEY MATT - I rarely say this but, a $15 PDF would be much more attractive) ...

I don't want to re-open old debates, I was just double-checking (HEY MATT- THERE'S WAY TOO MANY TYPO'S AND ERRATA)
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Re: SMG's ?

Postby Reynard » Sun Oct 16, 2011 11:54 pm

A submachine gun is an automatic carbine. I checked Mercenary and on page 101 it's there with the other carbines as autocarbine.
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Re: SMG's ?

Postby rust » Sun Oct 16, 2011 11:58 pm

MGT's terminology is somewhat erratic when it comes to
weaponry (and so are many of the weapon's stats, but
that is another subject). Since an SMG originally also was
called a "machine pistol", the core rules' automatic pistol
with its autofire capability and its magazine of 15 rounds
could perhaps be considered the equivalent of a certain
type of SMG.
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Re: SMG's ?

Postby far-trader » Mon Oct 17, 2011 12:51 am

SMGs are a tricky area. The definition I think that best fits is the ammo of a pistol and the stock and barrel of a short rifle (aka carbine) and fully automatic capable (of course).

An automatic (full, as opposed to the auto pistol) handgun is not a SMG, the barrel is too short and it doesn't have a rifle stock.

An automatic (again full as opposed to semi) carbine is not a SMG either, it is firing rifle ammo and is more properly an assault carbine.

Hence the above negatives in my earlier post for the... excuses? at attempting to mollify the people asking where the SMG went by claiming it was covered by the Auto Pistol and then the Carbine. Clearly they are not.

It would have been better for Mogoose to simply admit that they either:

a) missed it, twice, or...

b) tried to eliminate it as insignificant and obsolete

In the case of "a" I could probably forgive it, especially if it had been admitted early and fixed as errata.

In the case of "b" that just doesn't fly, Traveller has long been about inclusion and not exclusion. Might as well drop ALL weapons below TL12 (which they didn't) if that line of reasoning were the point.

...but anyway, old news, and the flames had almost died out too ;)
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Re: SMG's ?

Postby Reynard » Mon Oct 17, 2011 1:15 am

"SMGs are a tricky area. The definition I think that best fits is the ammo of a pistol and the stock and barrel of a short rifle (aka carbine) and fully automatic capable (of course).... An automatic (again full as opposed to semi) carbine is not a SMG either, it is firing rifle ammo and is more properly an assault carbine."

According to Wikipedia an SMG is an automatic carbine.: "A submachine gun (SMG) is an automatic carbine, designed to fire pistol cartridges. It combines the automatic fire of a machine gun with the cartridge of a pistol. The submachine gun was invented during World War I (1914-1918), but the apex of its use was during World War II (1939-1945) when millions of the weapon type were manufactured. Today the submachine gun has mostly been replaced by the assault rifle for military use. (The assault rifle uses an intermediate-power cartridge with more power than a pistol but less than a standard rifle or battle rifle.)"

That's why the autocarbine seems the closest match.
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Re: SMG's ?

Postby far-trader » Mon Oct 17, 2011 1:26 am

Wikipedia? Really? Well that clears that up... ;)

If it's a carbine designed to fire pistol ammo then it is by definition NOT a carbine. Wikipedia wrong, shocker... not. The description fails on its own internal logic statement.

As I said, a SMG is a fully automatic weapon with a short barrel and stock (like a carbine, "like" not IS) firing pistol ammo (not rifle ammo like a carbine, or even like modern assault rifles*).

* note "rifle", not carbine, not pistol, denoting something more

...but it's an argument that really doesn't need hammering out again :) At least not... well, no, I won't bother going there ;)

The Automatic Carbine in Merc (at least pre CSC*) might be the closest fit, but it is still just that, a substitution. And not really close by definition.

* but it still begs the question of where the SMG went in Core, and why the fabrication that the Auto Pistol was the SMG

...help! I've sucked myself into the argument!! Abandon thread! Abandon thread! Abandon thread!
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Re: SMG's ?

Postby Reynard » Mon Oct 17, 2011 2:52 am

Far-trader, I too often see in these forums overcomplication of the very simple rule sets Traveller is noted for. I looked up the definition of the weapon we were talking about then searched for the nearest equivalent in MgT rules. The autocarbine seemed the closest fit. K.I.S.S.
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Re: SMG's ?

Postby apoc527 » Mon Oct 17, 2011 3:15 am

The CSC is the simple answer to all the weapon-related questions. It's the reason I decided to buy so heavily into MGT. Call me crazy, because I know others dislike the CSC vehemently, but I think it's the greatest thing since sliced bread. It certainly clears up any "SMG" questions!
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Re: SMG's ?

Postby BP » Mon Oct 17, 2011 4:56 am

Suspect Colin summed it up at the bottom of this thread (maybe one far-trader refers to):
viewtopic.php?p=541695

FYI: Google search based on URL will find older posts.

(It certainly appears left out, so I'd just stat my own - can't be too hard. Guess that is a hangover from playing for years with just a hand full of LBBs.)
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Re: SMG's ?

Postby rust » Mon Oct 17, 2011 9:45 am

The debate about the right definition of an SMG is likely to go
nowhere, because those dumb weapon manufacturers obvious-
ly do not know the definitions. :lol:

Take the Skorpion as an example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%A0korpion_vz._61

It is marketed (and usually considered) as a submachine gun,
although it is sold with and without a stock (the standard ver-
sion is carried in a holster just like a normal pistol), there is a
carbine version of it, and so on.

The automatic pistol of the core rules seems very similar to the
Skorpion, with its small magazine and all that, so depending on
one's preferred definition one could accept it as a submachine
gun like the Skorpion - or not ...
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Re: SMG's ?

Postby nats » Mon Oct 17, 2011 12:29 pm

Just add on yourself - I am sure someone here will give you the stats of the CSC submachinegun. In fact take a look at the CSC sample pdf and that shows you a type of smg ytou could use if you drop the underbarrel grenade launcher.

Why all the arguments on here about what is and isnt an SMG just make one up based on the old Traveller stats etc. I wish people would be helpful instead of argumentative in Traveller forums.
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Re: SMG's ?

Postby phavoc » Mon Oct 17, 2011 3:10 pm

Something else to remember is SMG's make great boarding weapons. Used to be you wanted to use lasers and zero-g weapons for boarding actions... but with the armor rules, you are in no way, shape or form at risk of punching a hole through the hull with a SMG. So blast away at your enemies!

(but their tinkering with the grav plating is still a threat... welcome to the 29th century!)
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Re: SMG's ?

Postby far-trader » Mon Oct 17, 2011 8:38 pm

BP wrote:...this thread (maybe one far-trader refers to):
viewtopic.php?p=541695
Yep, I think that was it, thanks BP!
BP wrote:FYI: Google search based on URL will find older posts.
I did try that but to no avail. Maybe I formatted it wrong or used the wrong url :(

Can you post or PM me an example?
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Re: SMG's ?

Postby Egil Skallagrimsson » Mon Oct 17, 2011 9:31 pm

The csc smg has too much range (ranged as an assualt weapon), making it too capable, and the autopistol in the corebook does look like a misprint for auto pistol stats rather than an attempt to model the smg on the scorpian.

We use the pistol ranges for the smg (otherwise stating it at dam 3d6-3, mag 30 auto 4 etc). To give it some advantage over the auto pistol (beyond the autofire capability, no mean advantage in itself)) we apply an extra -2 DM for one handed slug pistols at long range (so -6), making a hit with a pistol or revolver unlikely beyond 50m. Sounds a little clumsy, but works fine in practice.

To be honest I find players are not that bothered about smgs if they can get hold of an autorifle with a telescopic sight (let alone an ACR), a far more flexible and useful weapon.

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Re: SMG's ?

Postby BP » Mon Oct 17, 2011 9:44 pm

re: far-trader - googling past forum posts: I put the search terms and add site:, like so: SMG site:forum.mongoosepublishing.com

Advanced search should give more options - though its still not as nice as the forum search would be. Not really seeing a technical reason this was not done (maybe an oversite or limited skill?). Enjoy.

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