Religon in the Traveller universe.Many paths.

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DFW
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Postby DFW » Thu May 05, 2011 6:34 pm

far-trader wrote:In Traveller, in MTUs, I just don't see Terran divinity based faith surviving first contact. Nothing in their dogma supports extraterrestrial life. Not just intelligent life. Not just advanced life. But any life. Period.
Not that I'm that familiar (other than reading the texts) with it but, I found nothing that is against that being the case.
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Postby alex_greene » Thu May 05, 2011 6:53 pm

far-trader wrote:The old adage "There are no atheists in a foxhole." (and similar) has never been true :)
What on Earth does that saying mean anyway? It perplexes me, unless it's intended to say that humans, facing fear and terror in extremis, instinctively turn to God - which I surely doubt as much as any of the atheists do on these fora.
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Postby DFW » Thu May 05, 2011 6:56 pm

alex_greene wrote:It perplexes me, unless it's intended to say that humans, facing fear and terror in extremis, instinctively turn to God - which I surely doubt as much as any of the atheists do on these fora.
Go ask 100 guys that have been under heavy shelling sitting out in a fox hole. The only way to know if it is true (I have no idea).
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Postby alex_greene » Thu May 05, 2011 6:59 pm

I can only imagine the proper reply to "There are no atheists in s foxhole" to be "No, because either they were blown away instantly on impact or they're already getting the hell out of there instead of wasting their time drawing attention to themselves by standing still and praying so a sniper can draw a bead."
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Postby alex_greene » Thu May 05, 2011 7:00 pm

DFW wrote:
alex_greene wrote:It perplexes me, unless it's intended to say that humans, facing fear and terror in extremis, instinctively turn to God - which I surely doubt as much as any of the atheists do on these fora.
Go ask 100 guys that have been under heavy shelling sitting out in a fox hole. The only way to know if it is true (I have no idea).
I imagine that the language would be more colourful profanity than divine invocation, under such circumstances.
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Postby Somebody » Thu May 05, 2011 7:02 pm

IanBruntlett wrote:
Somebody wrote: One to many bad experiences with religion in games during a convention had me ban religion from ANY game, including Fantasy.
Does that mean AD&D's Clerics and Priests are a no-no as well?
I do not play (A)DnD. Nor "Das Spielen Alle" (DSA). But yes, no clerics in a Fantasy RPG. At least not "visible" and no player chars
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Postby DFW » Thu May 05, 2011 7:08 pm

alex_greene wrote:
DFW wrote: Go ask 100 guys that have been under heavy shelling sitting out in a fox hole. The only way to know if it is true (I have no idea).
I imagine that the language would be more colourful profanity than divine invocation, under such circumstances.
I have no idea what thoughts go through the heads of soldiers during times like those. You'd have to ask to know.
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Postby zero » Thu May 05, 2011 7:45 pm

I think it means that most may say/think "Please God (or Jesus or tbh w/e), help me out" whether they believe in their chosen figure or not.

Most people (in the west) when shocked may mutter "Oh Jesus!" without believing in Christianity.

No atheists in a foxhole.

Disclaimer: Outside of computergames I have never been in that situation :roll:
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Postby alex_greene » Thu May 05, 2011 8:12 pm

Future battlefields might take place a long way from the Holy Land, and in the farthest reaches of the future there might not be any room for religion in war. People born a thousand light years from Galilee might consider that invoking Christ's name under any circumstances would make as much sense as the superstition of not standing under a propped-up ladder.

But their enemies will always be devils, and if they don't send those enemies to Hell there will be Hell to pay.
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Postby rust » Fri May 06, 2011 12:33 am

DFW wrote: Go ask 100 guys that have been under heavy shelling sitting out in a fox hole. The only way to know if it is true (I have no idea).
I only know of quite a few people, including my father, who became atheists
during the war, because - as they usually put it - "religion did not work under
fire".
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Postby DFW » Fri May 06, 2011 3:55 am

rust wrote:
DFW wrote: Go ask 100 guys that have been under heavy shelling sitting out in a fox hole. The only way to know if it is true (I have no idea).
I only know of quite a few people, including my father, who became atheists
during the war, because - as they usually put it - "religion did not work under
fire".
Yes, I've heard similarly. Especially during the Great War.
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Postby Jame Rowe » Fri May 06, 2011 2:59 pm

far-trader wrote:
alex_greene wrote:
far-trader wrote:Anti-divinity? No, the devil dies when god does. Which is not the same as saying evil dies. Neither does good and morality die.
Keep telling yourself that. :)

<snip>
None of that is religion though. Most of it doesn't even qualify as superstition in current usage.

The old adage "There are no atheists in a foxhole." (and similar) has never been true :)
If one can't be good on your own, and only because it is good, then one is not worthy of a god that tells you what good it. One needs to be responsible on one's own.

For myself, I presume that most spacefaring cultures move away from religion and towards more in-this-life philosophies of goodness (based on and drawing on religions as often as not). Most would, I think, join a church more for the socialization and community than anything else.
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Postby alex_greene » Fri May 06, 2011 6:56 pm

Well, one thing for certain will go by the board. Astrology won't travel to the stars along with the human race. Of that, I feel quite certain.
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Postby far-trader » Fri May 06, 2011 7:18 pm

alex_greene wrote:Well, one thing for certain will go by the board. Astrology won't travel to the stars along with the human race. Of that, I feel quite certain.
I dunno, it survives, even thrives, today in the most scientifically advanced age we've known. Mostly as entertainment, though with many ardent believers. I can see astrology being spun into a much bigger thing with the adherents inventing all kinds of new "calculations" to figure out your interstellar sign...
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Postby Mithras » Fri May 06, 2011 7:26 pm

I have three religions I'm developing;

Holy Stigmata; a Christian religion looking for signs of Jesus wanderings 'in the desert' (of the Universe)

Godstars; essentially the Church of Stellar Divinity; a development of Japanese kami/shintoism

plus some form of jumpspace religion (based on the idea of jumpspace as an unknowable, mysterious, unreachable place).
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Postby AlphaWhelp » Sat May 07, 2011 8:52 pm

I don't use the OTU, and in fact, I don't even use Earth, I do the star wars thing "a long time ago in a galaxy far away" as the foundation for my universe, and I personally have lots of fun inventing new religions for the game (The PCs recently hired a priestess to work as crew on their ship, as a matter of fact).
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Postby Nuclear Fridge Magnet » Sat May 07, 2011 10:30 pm

I "agree to disagree", myself. My views on religion are my own. I don't seek to push them onto others -- and hopefully I will be treated with the same respect (not that I see it happening).

Should you choose to explore the topic in YTU, by all means. I will neither condone nor condemn -- it is not my place.
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Postby Sevya » Sun May 15, 2011 3:03 am

far-trader wrote: The old adage "There are no atheists in a foxhole." (and similar) has never been true :)
Actually, I was pretty much an atheist until the scud attacks in the Gulf War. I probably would have been in a lot better shape mentally if I had found the religion I now follow before the war.

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Postby OddjobXL » Mon May 16, 2011 5:39 pm

This is one of the reasons I enjoy the Fading Suns setting as much as I do (c'mon Redbrick, let's have Fading Suns: Traveller and soon!). They spend as much time detailing the central (very neo-Catholic) faith, schisms and heresies as much as anything else. It's loaded with political implications and even technological ones (complete with an Inquisition on the lookout for heretical technologies - in the computer game Emperor of The Fading Suns players can try to manipulate the Church into declaring certain technologies sinful as a way to counter them...).

For that matter the cultures of the main noble factions, and their followers, as well as the assorted guilds and aliens are highly fleshed out and there are many archetypal NPCs out there running around to put a human face on much of this.

OTU's always struck me as very dry and abstract in comparison.
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Postby Somebody » Mon May 16, 2011 7:13 pm

For me the "religion" aspect was the reason NOT to play Fading Suns, Warhammer 40K and similar things. Even "Heavy Gear" is something I ditched because of the religious North (sadly, otherwise I like the Universe)

NO Religion in RPG please!

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