Fistfight damage

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deejaay
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Fistfight damage

Postby deejaay » Wed Jan 12, 2011 7:14 pm

Last night I ran a game where a Pirate punched a hostage to get them to shut up. I instinctly remembered Classic Traveller's 'Hands' range matrix that delivered 1d6 at close range. I rolled a 5. The players moaned and was astonished at the apparent power this Pirate had. I moved on and the event was forgotten in the battle that ensued afterward. Today I was trying to find the same stats in MGT for a hand punch (To make sure I was not overdoing the damage). I could not find anything referencing a physical punch damage. Could someone point me in the right direction or let me know any house rules?
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Postby rust » Wed Jan 12, 2011 7:21 pm

The first line of the melee weapons table in the equipment chapter of the core rules. :)
deejaay
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Postby deejaay » Wed Jan 12, 2011 7:25 pm

Awesome! My eye was looking for 'Hands' like in the CT books, missed it in the MGT book. Looks like that Pirate WAS pretty strong.
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Postby Cryton » Wed Jan 12, 2011 7:54 pm

Hehe, did you remember to add your effect level to your damage as well?
:twisted:

In my last game a PC managed to KO a guard in one hit after rolling box-cars for a total effect of 5. (I use the optional rule:Knockout Blow.)

It was the start of an EPIC fight in which two PCs managed to overpower a trio of guards who were about to lock them up for a crime they didnt commit.

Very fun.
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Postby apoc527 » Thu Jan 13, 2011 4:55 am

Speaking of punch damage, we found it rather unbelieveable. A knife only does 2 more damage than a fist?

MGT could use some nonlethal or stun damage rules (the kind that accumulate, not the stun rules that exist).
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Postby DFW » Thu Jan 13, 2011 1:29 pm

apoc527 wrote:Speaking of punch damage, we found it rather unbelieveable. A knife only does 2 more damage than a fist?

MGT could use some nonlethal or stun damage rules (the kind that accumulate, not the stun rules that exist).
I think I'll change it to 1-4. 1-6 is too much.
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Postby rust » Thu Jan 13, 2011 4:12 pm

apoc527 wrote:Speaking of punch damage, we found it rather unbelieveable. A knife only does 2 more damage than a fist?
I have no real problem with the amount of punch damage, only with the
fact that it is usually treated as permanent damage, while in real life most
of this kind of damage is temporary. So, while a single hit that makes an
opponent unconscious is quite plausible, the opponent should normally re-
cover from almost all of the damage within only a few rounds at worst.
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Postby Bense » Thu Jan 13, 2011 4:57 pm

I find people taking permanent injury from fist fights more realistic then some kind of stun damage system where they could shrug it off in a matter of hours.
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Postby DFW » Thu Jan 13, 2011 5:19 pm

Bense wrote:I find people taking permanent injury from fist fights more realistic then some kind of stun damage system where they could shrug it off in a matter of hours.
Other than a broken tooth, it is unusual to get permanently injured in a short fight. Probability goes up with strength & competence of course.

Hmm, maybe 1D2 temp as default & add perm dmg for str bonus & unarmed combat skill level.

So, a char with a +1 Str and Unarmed Combat -1 rolls 1D2 (stun) and does 2 points real dmg with each successful attack.
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Postby Bense » Thu Jan 13, 2011 5:55 pm

But "permanent damage" in Traveller doesn't mean lost teeth or nerve damage or something - it just means "damage it will take me a day or two to fully recover from".
Is your Tactics (internet forum) skill better than mine?
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Postby rust » Thu Jan 13, 2011 8:14 pm

Bense wrote:I find people taking permanent injury from fist fights more realistic ...
In this case boxing would be a rather lethal sport ...

More seriously, I had to treat lots of victims of fist fights over the years,
and almost all of the damage they suffered was far less permanent than
damage from, for example, a knife wound or a bullet wound.
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Postby CosmicGamer » Thu Jan 13, 2011 10:59 pm

I've heard similar talk in the past regarding both the melee and ranged rules. The way I look at it is that the system in MGT is for COMBAT. Not two kids wrestling in the schoolyard. Not even boxing; which is a sport and has rules to help prevent injury. I wouldn't use the combat system to determine the outcome of a child kicking a man in the shins or a girlfriend slapping her cheating boyfriend across the face, and perhaps not the situation presented by the original poster since the intent was to get a hostage to shut up and not an attempt to do as much damage as possible.

I also believe gun combat is not the same as a sharpshooting competition. If nothing else, when you are shooting at targets you don't have the stress of someone trying to kill you!
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Postby Faelan Niall » Thu Jan 13, 2011 11:49 pm

I always find arguments over how unarmed combat is ineffective compared to x, y, and z. Boxing the sport uses protective gear to minimize the damage. Give a boxer a reason to want you in the hospital and watch him put you there sans the gloves. It is very easy to maim or kill with your bare hands, most people simply don't know how, or more often are squeamish about inflicting that kind of damage. A punch to the throat crushing your larynx is that permanent damage? How about a side kick to your knee? Or breaking your elbow? A quick palm to the nose and yes it breaks rather easily. A quick grab and your ear is gone. A hard punch and your ribs are broken. Just because most people don't know how to strike or grapple, does not inherently make the damage inflicted less permanent. If you have been trained clearly you are doing something more serious than "fistfight" at a bar over something alcohol driven, which usually involves the classic chest bump. If that chest bump happens and the receiver is the wrong person winding up on the floor with only one limb broken and a broken nose would be considered the gentle measured response.
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Postby DFW » Fri Jan 14, 2011 1:42 am

Long and short of REALITY; a punch by a man isn't likely (1 in 6 punches) to do 6 points of damage. I'm going to change to 1D2 + Str & Effect.
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Postby Faelan Niall » Fri Jan 14, 2011 2:23 am

DFW wrote:Long and short of REALITY; a punch by a man isn't likely (1 in 6 punches) to do 6 points of damage. I'm going to change to 1D2 + Str & Effect.
Long and short of "REALITY" is that a man can be knocked out by a single punch or a combination of two punches, which is reflected in the rules. You might want to know something about the subject matter before you go making declarations about "REALITY".
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Postby rust » Fri Jan 14, 2011 4:46 am

Faelan Niall wrote: It is very easy to maim or kill with your bare hands, most people simply don't know how ...
What you describe is the result of the use of martial arts with the inten-
tion to main or kill, which should be different both from a serious fight
between persons who do not have such skill and from a use of force to
just subdue a person.
Faelan Niall wrote: Long and short of "REALITY" is that a man can be knocked out by a single punch or a combination of two punches ...
Yep, but that is most unlikely to keep him unconscious for hours or even
days, it will "heal" much faster than, for example, a gunshot wound.
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Postby The Dark Avenger » Fri Jan 14, 2011 10:48 am

Having both designed games and fought full-contact, I can safely say that unarmed combat is one of the hardest things to model in a game.

Two guys flailing drunken haymakers at one another aren't likely to cause massive permanent damage (it happens occasionally though), but if one of them goes down and the other decides to start stomping, permanent and even fatal damage is very easy to inflict.

Similarly, a grabbing and shoving match isn't going to achive much of permanency, but someone who gets and advantageous position (and knows how) can break limbs or choke their opponent fairly easily.

Most 'fistfights' are actually limited somewhat - often there is an exchange of blows, insults and grabs, then it sort of breaks up before it goes too far. Simialr to ritualised animal behaviour, where conflict is rarely to the death.

Serious injuries are usually the result of going past this stage, ie when someone has the intent to kill or cause serious injury. Some drunk with evil intent probably can't kill you with a punch but he can hit you until you go down then stomp you - which can and does sometimes kill.
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Postby Faelan Niall » Fri Jan 14, 2011 1:08 pm

rust wrote:What you describe is the result of the use of martial arts with the intention to main or kill, which should be different both from a serious fight between persons who do not have such skill and from a use of force to
just subdue a person.
Subduing someone is done by grappling them. Hitting someone except under controlled conditions (i.e. torture) is asking for trouble. That is why damage is random and not fixed.
rust wrote: Yep, but that is most unlikely to keep him unconscious for hours or even
days, it will "heal" much faster than, for example, a gunshot wound.
No but the likely concussion will jack him up for weeks. Trying to model stun damage in a game that already essentially models it in its healing system/rules is questionable. Most of the comments resulting in reduced damage essentially make unarmed combat pretty useless.
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Postby Faelan Niall » Fri Jan 14, 2011 1:14 pm

The Dark Avenger wrote:Having both designed games and fought full-contact, I can safely say that unarmed combat is one of the hardest things to model in a game.

Two guys flailing drunken haymakers at one another aren't likely to cause massive permanent damage (it happens occasionally though), but if one of them goes down and the other decides to start stomping, permanent and even fatal damage is very easy to inflict.

Similarly, a grabbing and shoving match isn't going to achive much of permanency, but someone who gets and advantageous position (and knows how) can break limbs or choke their opponent fairly easily.

Most 'fistfights' are actually limited somewhat - often there is an exchange of blows, insults and grabs, then it sort of breaks up before it goes too far. Simialr to ritualised animal behaviour, where conflict is rarely to the death.

Serious injuries are usually the result of going past this stage, ie when someone has the intent to kill or cause serious injury. Some drunk with evil intent probably can't kill you with a punch but he can hit you until you go down then stomp you - which can and does sometimes kill.
In a game generally speaking if it is a conflict with potential danger I use the rules. If for instance we want to model the chest bumping drunk style kung fu well a simple attack roll is needed. If the attacker succeeds assume the fight will eventually swing his way. Narrate it.

(I agree with your assessment. My point is that the system is not really trying to model a non serious type of hth combat, which is easily handled by simple narrative choices, hell you could even just compare skill ratings or raw talent.)
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Postby The Dark Avenger » Fri Jan 14, 2011 1:16 pm

A generalised roll and narrative approach is one of the few ways that works well.
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