Rules check please - Starship combat damage

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kirstar
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Rules check please - Starship combat damage

Postby kirstar » Wed Jul 28, 2010 7:48 am

Once you hit you roll you dice take off armour and consult againt the tablel. 1 hit, 2 hits, double hit etc.

Do you add the effect to the damage roll.

So dead eye richard, the best gunner in 5 systems (+3 dex, +5 skill, +1 sensors, +1 accurate guns) fires his particle beam and rolls a 12 on his hit roll. Would he roll 3d6+14 on the damage table or 3d6 ?




I ask because without this a ship with armour become almost immune unless its against very high end weapons. Even a few points of armour make a huge difference.
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Postby rinku » Wed Jul 28, 2010 10:09 am

Nothing in the ship combat rules about adding effect to damage. That's a personal combat rule.

However, I do see your point. Many of the standard ships have 4 points of armour, which will limit 1D6 weapons to single hits. However, whether you're using the uncorrected basic rules or the modified High Guard ones, 2D6 lasers are available even at this level. Also, armour will commonly degrade over the course of a battle (one in 6 hits is an armour hit...)

To my mind, using the +effect rule enables the basic weapons too much. Don't forget that the heaviest armoured battleship is limited to amour equal to its tech level (High Guard rule). That 4 points is meant to be quite well armoured; 15 points is normally as good as you can get!

If you want to take into account lucky hits, I'd just use the "one point on effect 6+" rule. That will enable Dead Eye Richard (or Lucky Lucas) to have *some* effect without changing things too much.

But it's your game.
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Postby Captain Jonah » Wed Jul 28, 2010 10:59 am

Agree with Rinku, +effect becomes lethal at the small ship scale.

For example your deadly gunner in a triple laser turret gets three hits with a 2D laser and adds effect. Against a PC with 4 armour you are looking at the following. Assuming +effect is just the mods (each roll to hit was exact) thats 2D + 10 - 4 armour, ave 13 per laser. Thats three single hits per laser, 9 single hits. Your one triple laser turret in one round just shreded the PC. In return even with less skilled gunners the 2 triple lasers and 2 triple missiles on the PC turned your Trader into a floating wreck. Navy gunner 3, +1 dex, sensors +2, accurate lasers +1 = +7
6 2D lasers hitting your armour 4 ship on again exact rolls will inflict 6 double hits and 6 1D missiles will inflict 2 single hits each for a total of 6 doubles and 12 singles. Sandcasters and point defence will help a little but this is still deadly.

Presuming your player ship and/or players survive the first round of combat they will be facing a multi Mcr repair bill. Not to mention the prison time.

Ship lasers and missiles are very much point defence weapons only. Small warships come with Pbeams or Fusion weapons (when they come back in turrets and Barbettes). These are the small ship killers not lasers and dinky little missiles.

There is a gap in weapons here anyway. There should be heavy missiles between the regular missiles and the "torpedos", where are the heavy lasers etc. This was talked to death many an age ago on other boards and a lot of these items were houseruled in but it is always better to have such things done officialy hint hint mongoose :D

If you want to add a + effect try per 3 successes for a more balanced lethal combat, +1 per two successes makes combat downright dangerous, +1 per 4 successes is a bit of a nudge for good roles and skills.

Oh and while talking about "Torpedos". Why, just why? Big, expensive, highly damaging and shot down every time. You use point defence fire like normal missiles so a triple laser turret can take out the fire of a 50ton torpedo bay. Clearly someone in procurement for the Imperial navy took some hefty bribes to even think about buying torpedos. :shock:
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Postby District268 » Wed Jul 28, 2010 7:35 pm

Given that the concept of effect dice underpins the rest of the rules mechanics, it would seam very strange if it didn't apply to weapons damage in space combat. I would, therefore, say that there is a presumption, IMHO that effect should be added.

I also have a vague memory that someone involved with Mongoose did comment on this board and said that effect should be applied.
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Postby DFW » Wed Jul 28, 2010 8:00 pm

District268 wrote:Given that the concept of effect dice underpins the rest of the rules mechanics, it would seam very strange if it didn't apply to weapons damage in space combat. I would, therefore, say that there is a presumption, IMHO that effect should be added.

I also have a vague memory that someone involved with Mongoose did comment on this board and said that effect should be applied.
Personal combat (visual range) is a lot different than hitting a blib on a sensor screen 50km away. That is MAJOR, IMO.
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Postby District268 » Wed Jul 28, 2010 10:04 pm

DFW wrote:Personal combat (visual range) is a lot different than hitting a blib on a sensor screen 50km away. That is MAJOR, IMO.
I’m not discussing the merits of whether effect should be added in space combat, merely whether the rules as written imply that it should be.

Since effect not only applies to personal combat, but also to other areas such as the outcome of skill rolls etc. It would logical to assume that it was the intention that effect should be added to space combat damage.

As I said earlier, that's just my opinion. It would be nice, however, to get a definitive answer to this question. Any chance Matt?
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Postby DFW » Wed Jul 28, 2010 11:52 pm

District268 wrote:I’m not discussing the merits of whether effect should be added in space combat, merely whether the rules as written imply that it should be.
No, as written, the space combat rules don't suggest its use. It would be a leap to think that was the intention of the designers.
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Postby Captain Jonah » Thu Jul 29, 2010 7:50 am

Well you could always go down into the basement and bang on their cage with a stick to wake them up then ask them. :D

From a safe distance of course :twisted:
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Postby DFW » Thu Jul 29, 2010 8:13 am

Captain Jonah wrote:Well you could always go down into the basement and bang on their cage with a stick to wake them up then ask them. :D

From a safe distance of course :twisted:
:lol:

Do any of the designers ever comment here on rules questions?
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Postby rust » Thu Jul 29, 2010 8:15 am

District268 wrote:Given that the concept of effect dice underpins the rest of the rules mechanics, it would seam very strange if it didn't apply to weapons damage in space combat.
I doubt it, because here the gunner's skill works only indirectly via the
ship's weapon systems. If effect would come into the calculation, this
would imply that the skill can increase a beam weapon's power or a
missile's warhead. If a skill could alter technology this way, an engineer
should be able to make the ship fly faster than its maneuver drive rating
allows or to jump further than its jump drive is rated for, and this does
not seem plausible to me.
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Postby rinku » Thu Jul 29, 2010 9:30 am

In addition, in personal combat it is much more likely that a shot might hit an unarmoured or weak spot, penetrate a vital organ or some such, and that skill will affect this. The same applies to normal vehicles at normal ranges.

Spaceship armour is overall (though High Guard has some rules for armouring systems seperately). It's not reasonable to expect any ability to target particular parts of a target at space combat ranges and velocities either (unless the ship has lost all maneuver. Even then, the unarmored bits of the ship are pretty much limited to sensors).
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Postby CosmicGamer » Thu Jul 29, 2010 12:20 pm

DFW wrote:Do any of the designers ever comment here on rules questions?
My mom always told me if you have nothing nice to say...

So, no comment regarding Mongoose giving official word on rules questions.

I have seen some 'designers' comment on their work though.

You can double your exposure by posting in 'The Rulesmasters' "Can't figure out a rule? Ask the Mongoose Rulesmasters!" forum.
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Postby kirstar » Thu Jul 29, 2010 3:26 pm

We had a fight between a 200t ship with 2 beam laser and 4 points of armour against the corsair with 2 beam lasers, 3 sandcasters and 2 launchers.

Went on for 3 hours before I added +effect.
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Postby DFW » Thu Jul 29, 2010 6:00 pm

kirstar wrote:We had a fight between a 200t ship with 2 beam laser and 4 points of armour against the corsair with 2 beam lasers, 3 sandcasters and 2 launchers.

Went on for 3 hours before I added +effect.
Right. BLs are primarily designed for point defense, not offence. The launchers were nullified by point defense & armour. Sounds like the battle went as it should have, given the armament. It's like a boxing match with two fighters that suck at throwing punches but are good at blocking.

If you are inadequately armed, it becomes difficult to harm. ;)
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Postby District268 » Thu Jul 29, 2010 6:03 pm

DFW wrote:
District268 wrote:I’m not discussing the merits of whether effect should be added in space combat, merely whether the rules as written imply that it should be.
No, as written, the space combat rules don't suggest its use. It would be a leap to think that was the intention of the designers.
Maybe not such a leap after all after reading the comments by Mongoose Gar (Gareth Hanrahan) in the link below.

http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/phpBB ... 49&start=0

I suppose that this is about as close as we'll get to an official pronouncement on the subject.
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Postby DFW » Thu Jul 29, 2010 6:33 pm

District268 wrote:Maybe not such a leap after all after reading the comments by Mongoose Gar (Gareth Hanrahan) in the link below.

http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/phpBB ... 49&start=0

I suppose that this is about as close as we'll get to an official pronouncement on the subject.
Actually, not related at all to the question of skill effect/to hit roll on damage. His post relates to high damage roll increasing damage. Not the same animal rule mechanic wise.
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Postby rust » Thu Jul 29, 2010 7:05 pm

In the end it probably depends on whether one wants a "realistic" space
combat or a "cinematic" one.

The usual weapons available to the owners of civilian starships are no
"ship killers", the authorities probably are not interested in turning each
and every armed civilian vessel into a minor warship. The armour and
weapons available to civilian starship operators are intended to enable
them to protect themselves against attackers and escape from them, not
to start wars and fight space battles.

However, if you prefer space opera, you can always either add effect or
increase the weapons' damage to get a more "cinematic" combat - but
remember that this could lead to a significant player character turnover,
too, unless you go further with the rules modifications and introduce a
kind of "script immunity" for player characters.

I use neither approach, in my setting starship weapons are both extreme-
ly rare (no armed civilian vessels) and extremely powerful (the first hit
by a warship's weapons usually disables or detroys a civilian vessel, with
a very limited chance of survival for all crew members).
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Postby DFW » Thu Jul 29, 2010 7:14 pm

rust wrote:However, if you prefer space opera, you can always either add effect or increase the weapons' damage to get a more "cinematic" combat - but remember that this could lead to a significant player character turnover,
too,
Yes, this is a well known pitfall in the FRPG arena. PCs love the idea of easier "critical hits" until they figure out that the "monsters" are using the same combat rules as they... :twisted:
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Postby District268 » Thu Jul 29, 2010 7:40 pm

DFW wrote:
District268 wrote:Maybe not such a leap after all after reading the comments by Mongoose Gar (Gareth Hanrahan) in the link below.

http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/phpBB ... 49&start=0

I suppose that this is about as close as we'll get to an official pronouncement on the subject.
Actually, not related at all to the question of skill effect/to hit roll on damage. His post relates to high damage roll increasing damage. Not the same animal rule mechanic wise.
Having re read the quote, it appears to me that to calculate damage when you hit is "total damage= weapon damage+effect-armour" ie the higher you role over the target number, the greater the damage. Seams clear to me.
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Postby DFW » Thu Jul 29, 2010 8:06 pm

District268 wrote:Having re read the quote, it appears to me that to calculate damage when you hit is "total damage= weapon damage+effect-armour" ie the higher you role over the target number, the greater the damage. Seams clear to me.
"then the armour 4 applies against each of these attacks. Damage is 1d6+Effect-4, 1d6+Effect-4 and 1d6+Effect-4. ... and I've started using the rule that a roll of a six on a damage dice also degrades armour by one in my home games."

Where in this quote does it mention the "to hit roll" influencing damage? "Effect" is from the damage table on pg. 150 of main rule book...

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