CSC Weapons

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justacaveman
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CSC Weapons

Postby justacaveman » Sun Jul 11, 2010 2:36 am

I've noticed a few items in the CSC that seem to require some attention.

The Light Assault Gun (LAG) on page 107. Light? The thing weighs 30kg! In CT it only weighed 4kg, what's with that? At most, I would make it 8kg.

The 8mm Gauss Sniper Rifle on page 82. No stats are given for this weapon.
My own interpretation: Damage: 6d6+2, Shots: 10, Auto: No, Recoil: 0, Cost: 20,000, Mass: 10kg, Ammo cost: 60

Plasma Grenades on page 114. They seem rather weak at 5d6 (less than a High Explosive grenade). According to the description on page 122, they're supposed to be advanced versions of High Explosive grenades. I would make them 8d6/6d6/4d6, and raise the price to 250 in order to make them more in line with HE. They would only be available at TL 12+.

These are just the things I've worked out a solution for. There is also a decided lack in the hi-tech civilian weapon department, and a few gaps in the military weapons (I've done my own write-ups for these. Available as a PDF or other format if anyone wants it.).

Just my .02 credits.
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Postby Somebody » Sun Jul 11, 2010 2:40 am

Well, the LAG is described as a 20mm weapon. So it's in the same class as a Anti Tank Rifle. And for a 20mm ATR it is a lightweight weapon. I actually like the current weight, a lot lighter than a Soloturn S-18 20mm but not too light.
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Postby justacaveman » Sun Jul 11, 2010 5:56 am

The LAG is similar to a South African weapon called the Neopup 20mm PAW. The Neopup has a 6-round magazine and fires a 110 gram 20mm projectile at 310 m/s. It weighs 6kg unloaded, and about 7.5kg loaded, and is .845 meters long. It what the original CT LAG was supposed to be.

The weapon you're describing is a 20mm Anti-tank rifle. These weigh about 50kg, are about 1.8 meters long, and fire a 110 gram projectile at about 1000 m/s. Not a LAG.
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Postby Somebody » Sun Jul 11, 2010 10:53 am

justacaveman wrote:The LAG is similar to a South African weapon called the Neopup 20mm PAW. The Neopup has a 6-round magazine and fires a 110 gram 20mm projectile at 310 m/s. It weighs 6kg unloaded, and about 7.5kg loaded, and is .845 meters long. It what the original CT LAG was supposed to be.

The weapon you're describing is a 20mm Anti-tank rifle. These weigh about 50kg, are about 1.8 meters long, and fire a 110 gram projectile at about 1000 m/s. Not a LAG.
Debatabel since the Denel PAW-20 Neopub is a lot younger than the LAG and fires a totally different ammo. The LAG is capabel of firing a 20/9mm DS ammo that requires quite a bit of muzzle energy.

The PAW-20 Neopub is actually a 20mm grenade launcher firing a low velocity explosive round at 300m/s. If you want a weapon that is a modern day LAG then the Denel NTW-20 is a lot closer firing a classic canon round from the Mauser 151/20
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Postby justacaveman » Sun Jul 11, 2010 1:16 pm

The CT LAG had muzzle velocity between 400-500 m/s. The book stated that it fired a 20mm, 30 gram bullet. This weight would be incorrect, and either a typo or a misunderstanding of metric weights (written by an american before metric usage was common). A more realistic projectile weight would be 60-70 grams. Also the weapon itself was a bit light at 4.5kg loaded, again a more realistic weight would be about 8kg loaded. The projectile on the Neopup is 110 grams, and reducing this to 60-70 grams would get you the muzzle velocity of the LAG. Also the Neopup uses no new technology, it's just repackaged 1970's tech (about TL 7). The LAG is a TL 8 design, and would have some improvements over the Neopup. And a LAG WAS basically a high-velocity grenade launcher before anyone tried to make such a weapon for real. The Neopup is just an early version of a LAG with a bigger payload and 60% of the muzzle velocity.

The LAG was designed as assault weapon, which means firepower and mobility. The 20mm anti-tank rifles do not meet this criteria, they are too heavy, and designed for use in stationary positions. They are just really big sniper rifles designed to shoot at armoured vehicles.
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Postby Stainless » Sun Jul 11, 2010 3:54 pm

Must there be all this gun-porn on the net? There may be young people reading! :roll:
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Postby Somebody » Sun Jul 11, 2010 4:12 pm

justacaveman wrote:The CT LAG had muzzle velocity between 400-500 m/s. The book stated that it fired a 20mm, 30 gram bullet. This weight would be incorrect, and either a typo or a misunderstanding of metric weights (written by an american before metric usage was common). A more realistic projectile weight would be 60-70 grams. Also the weapon itself was a bit light at 4.5kg loaded, again a more realistic weight would be about 8kg loaded. The projectile on the Neopup is 110 grams, and reducing this to 60-70 grams would get you the muzzle velocity of the LAG. Also the Neopup uses no new technology, it's just repackaged 1970's tech (about TL 7). The LAG is a TL 8 design, and would have some improvements over the Neopup. And a LAG WAS basically a high-velocity grenade launcher before anyone tried to make such a weapon for real. The Neopup is just an early version of a LAG with a bigger payload and 60% of the muzzle velocity.

The LAG was designed as assault weapon, which means firepower and mobility. The 20mm anti-tank rifles do not meet this criteria, they are too heavy, and designed for use in stationary positions. They are just really big sniper rifles designed to shoot at armoured vehicles.
Can't say about the CT LAG, never used that. But the MT LAG fires a 20/9mm DS bullet so it remains debatabel WHAT the LAG was. Fact is the Denel PAW is not a gun it's a multi-shot grenade launcher firing HE rounds. And those are covered by other weapons in CSC quite nicely.

Besides there is no guarantee that the Mongoose Traveller LAG is identical to the CT LAG. Nor must it be, even less so since grenade launchers even in the 25mm range are covered in CSC. So they may have changed the LAG to something else that is useful in a certain role (Anti Material Rifle).
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Postby rust » Sun Jul 11, 2010 4:22 pm

Stainless wrote:Must there be all this gun-porn on the net? There may be young people reading! :roll:
Indeed, one could at least try to discuss something more family friendly,
like for example chainsaws or shock whips. 8)
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Postby Somebody » Sun Jul 11, 2010 4:41 pm

rust wrote:
Stainless wrote:Must there be all this gun-porn on the net? There may be young people reading! :roll:
Indeed, one could at least try to discuss something more family friendly,
like for example chainsaws or shock whips. 8)
Medival repeating crossbows. Ever since seeing the "landing" scene in the new "Robin Hood" movie I am sure they have been used a lot in the 11th/12th century.
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Postby rust » Sun Jul 11, 2010 5:04 pm

Somebody wrote: Medival repeating crossbows. Ever since seeing the "landing" scene in the new "Robin Hood" movie I am sure they have been used a lot in the 11th/12th century.
I really loved the landing craft the French used for their amphibious as-
sault ... :lol:
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Postby Egil Skallagrimsson » Sun Jul 11, 2010 8:15 pm

Frankly, there are so many typos and/or misunderstandings of "real" slug weapons in CSC that my copy is covered with corrections. When they move onto support weapons, or weapons which don't exist (ACR, gausss, energy) things just become bizarre (and don't get me going on artillery, missiles etc),

The best thing is to pull out the weapons you will use/want the players to have access to in YTU, correct the stats where neccessary, write them up as a table, and use that.

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Postby justacaveman » Sun Jul 11, 2010 9:57 pm

In the various Traveller rule sets until MGT the LAG weighed about 4.5kg. Suddenly in MGT it weighs 30kg when the ammo cost right next to the weight is 30?

The Denel Neopup PAW is not a grenade launcher, even if they call it that. A 110 gram projectile travelling at 310 m/s has a lot of kinetic energy. Enough that the PAW uses an APC-T round round that will penetrate 8mm of steel armour at 100 meters. APC-T stands for Armor Piercing Capped - Tracer. This is a hardened steel kinetic kill projectile (no explosives) that was developed in WW II and was used in anti-tank guns. The PAW is a LAG in everything but name. A slight change in the ammo design and you have a faster round with about the same kinetic energy. The differences are minor.

If the weight is not a mistake then you are saying that the TL 8 LAG is somehow a poorly designed copy of a TL 5 Antitank Rifle, since it weighs almost twice as much, costs twice as much, has more than twice the recoil (another error I believe), and is 50% more expensive to fire, with no increase in lethality or effectiveness.

The Antitank rifle stats are on page 106, and the LAG's stats are on page 107 of the CSC.

Why some people insist on defending obvious errors while denying facts that are pointed out to them (repeatedly) just continues to both astound and annoy me. You are entitled to your own opinion, not your own facts.
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Postby justacaveman » Sun Jul 11, 2010 10:19 pm

Stainless said:
Must there be all this gun-porn on the net? There may be young people reading!
I'd have to say that you're playing the wrong types of games, since ALL RPGs have their roots in 1970's wargames. The roleplaying element came about when the players wanted a more personlized command experience, and developed rules to do this.

Most games are designed to simulate conflict and violence of one sort or another. To call an interest in accurately simulating the weapons involved "Gun Porn", is no more accurate than calling an interest in Olympic equipment technology "Sports Porn".
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Postby Somebody » Sun Jul 11, 2010 10:55 pm

The only ammo for the Neopub I find is HE, HE-I and Training, can you give the source for the AP? Same for a source not calling it a grenade launcher/not comparing it to the XM25?

Besides 8mm at 100m is a JOKE, some 7.92x57 rounds from WWII can do better being fired from a rifle, same for the AP-rounds from the 7.62x51 (Heck, the BW combat ammo can do it and that's a semi-ap)

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Postby justacaveman » Sun Jul 11, 2010 11:13 pm

It's on their own webpage.

http://www.neopup.co.za/neopupinformation.html

Click on ammunition.
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Postby Somebody » Mon Jul 12, 2010 12:25 am

Oh and as for the CSC:

I actually think they botched the AT-rifle entry by mixing the "whole range" from the light AT-rifles like the Panzerbüchse-39 all the way up to the heavies like the Solothurn S-18 using the weight of the former and the capabilities of the latter.

The Assault Grenade Launcher, 25mm OTOH makes a nice XM25/Neopub stand in both in caliber and function
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Postby justacaveman » Mon Jul 12, 2010 1:17 am

The Neopup is never called a grenade launcher by its manufacturer. They call it a Personal Area Weapon. Other people have called it a grenade launcher, because it it doesn't fit into their preconceived categories.

It is not a grenade launcher, it is a man-portable 20mm cannon firing a shortened 20mm cartridge at 310 m/s, but using the same 110 gram projectile (the part that comes out of the front of the barrel) as a 20mm Vulcan cannon. In contrast, a 40mm grenade launcher fires a 170 gram projectile at 76 m/s (25% of the muzzle velocity of the Neopup, with much less kinetic energy.).

As far as 8mm of steel armour being a JOKE, get real. This was the average armour thickness of a WW I tank (Which is what an antitank rifle was designed to kill. It was also the average thickness of most Armored Personnel Carriers up until the 1960's. This weapon isn't supposed to be killing tanks for goodness sake, it is supposed to take out LIGHT armoured vehicles and penetrate barriers that the enemy is using for cover.

And yes the TL 5 Antitank Rifle should weigh twice as much as it does in CSC. But the LAG should weigh 1/3 of what it does in the CSC, and have no more recoil than a shotgun (Watch the Neopup video).
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Postby Somebody » Mon Jul 12, 2010 6:52 am

Well, at 310m/s and it's typical payload it IS a grenade launcher in anything but name. And firing HE from long range is the thing it can be done safely

8mm AT 100meters might sound impressiv but it is not since a K-Bullet fired from a Mauser-98 back then could do that at 500meters! Today most APC/IFV are rated at least against 12.7BMG and that is capabel of 19mm at 500m. So that thing is at best abel to kill old/light armored cars with a side shot from a dangerously short range
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Postby justacaveman » Mon Jul 12, 2010 1:45 pm

You seem to have forgotten that we were discussing the LAG.

The reference to the Neopup was to determine whether or not it met the specifications for a LAG. And it does.

A LAG in Traveller was a shoulder-fired weapon that used a 20mm cartridge with a MAXIMUM muzzle velocity of 500 m/s. The specififications in the various Traveller books listed the weight of the projectile as 30 grams (This is an obvious error since a .50 BMG bullet (12.7mm) is 40 grams.), but realistically it should be about 70 grams. It had 5 shots, and was semi-automatic. The weight in the Traveller books varied from 4.5 kg-8kg loaded.

A Neopup (Not Neopub) uses a 20mm projectile at 310 m/s, has a 110 gram projectile, holds 6 shots, and weighs about 7.5 kg loaded. If you do NOTHING but reduce the projectile weight to 70 grams, you will kick the muzzle velocity up to 500 m/s easily (this will not affect the kinetic energy at all). So a Neopup is a LAG in all but name. The APCT rounds that the Neopup has made for it would be equivalent to Full AP Anti-Armour ammo, and you could make DSAP ammo for it if you so desired. I REPEAT a Neopup is a LAG (LAG stands for Light Assault Gun, and is a general term like SMG etc..).

And while you continue to disparage 8mm of armor as a JOKE, the following Vehicles all had/have armour that was no better protection than that: Soviet BTR series, French VAB, M113 series, Uparmored Humvees (There are plenty more.). 8mm of steel armour is sufficient to completely protect against 7.62mm ball ammunition. Only the newest and heaviest APC's have better armour protection than this. The LAG is not a design to kill tanks, just LIGHT vehicles etc. (And is just barely capable of that.).
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Postby Somebody » Mon Jul 12, 2010 2:01 pm

Let us say we disagree since

a) You insist on the CT version of the LAG being identical to the new MGT version while I don't (The MT and TNE variants are different). So it may meet YOUR idea of a LAG, it does not meet mine

b) We have different ideas of armor and armor protection. 8mm does barely protect against 7.62x51 BALL, the quite common SAP and AP bullets will pass through.

c) EOD since we won't agree

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