Ship design. Size of units

Discuss the Traveller RPG and its many settings
BP
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Postby BP » Tue Jul 13, 2010 7:26 am

'Burn your way thru' using souped up Glue gun - ala Firefly ;)
silburnl
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Postby silburnl » Tue Jul 13, 2010 2:03 pm

Mithras wrote:You watched it too, eh? And like me was just watching it for information on how to build a starship???
It was at the back of my mind, certainly.

The way that they put the sub-assemblies together, slotted them into the hull and then put the hull segments together matched up nicely with my 'minds-eye' visualisation of how a yard might work in the 3I.

For 'standard' ships like the fat-trader etc I would expect that spaces such as crew/passenger quarters would occupy set volumes within the hull but would then exhibit considerable variation in terms of internal layout and could also be quite reconfigurable (if you were willing to spend a day or so moving partitions and moving stuff in to/out of storage). There's only so many deckplans that can be done however...

Regards
Luke
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Postby DFW » Tue Jul 13, 2010 2:14 pm

FWIW - A Brief History of the Passenger Ship Industry

Image

From - Queen Elizabeth inside stateroom Image
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Postby Somebody » Tue Jul 13, 2010 2:30 pm

silburnl wrote:
Mithras wrote:You watched it too, eh? And like me was just watching it for information on how to build a starship???
It was at the back of my mind, certainly.

The way that they put the sub-assemblies together, slotted them into the hull and then put the hull segments together matched up nicely with my 'minds-eye' visualisation of how a yard might work in the 3I.

For 'standard' ships like the fat-trader etc I would expect that spaces such as crew/passenger quarters would occupy set volumes within the hull but would then exhibit considerable variation in terms of internal layout and could also be quite reconfigurable (if you were willing to spend a day or so moving partitions and moving stuff in to/out of storage). There's only so many deckplans that can be done however...

Regards
Luke
I have always seen the older ship types like the A/A2 that date back to Villanie times as "DIN Norm in space/hammered in stone on Mount Sinai" due to Vilanie/Impi conservatism. So the deck plan of any two Free/Far Traders just of the line will be almost identical.

The "Solomanie" influenced ships OTOH like the Subbies (400dton, 600dton) and the Solli ships themselfs are a lot more flexible during build. They have some set components (Bridge, Engineering) due to technical/structural reasons but between those bulkheads a lot goes when a ship is first build.

Changing a ships layout AFTER completion is a different thing. Depending on the number of bulkheads (Basically unmoveabel short of a Class B yard, may be structural elements IMHO) there may be little variation possible. Playing around with holdspace will work since that is an "open cavern"
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Postby rust » Tue Jul 13, 2010 2:48 pm

Somebody wrote: The "Solomanie" influenced ships OTOH like the Subbies (400dton, 600dton) and the Solli ships themselfs are a lot more flexible during build. They have some set components (Bridge, Engineering) due to technical/structural reasons but between those bulkheads a lot goes when a ship is first build.
The great majority of starships in my setting are of such a design, basi-
cally a hull with a bridge and engines and a lot of space the customer can
have filled any way he likes.
The second most common design is much like the official LSP Modular
Starship, a frame with bridge and engines to which various types of mo-
dules (usually the same types as cutter modules) can be attached in dif-
ferent, mission specific combinations.
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Hi

Postby PFVA63 » Wed Jul 14, 2010 12:50 am

I guess maybe something to do with respect to dimensions is maybe to try some out yourslves. I live in a small Cape Cod style house and have a short hallway leading to me bedroom and bathroom. Its roughly 35 to 36 inches wide. I also have a stairwell where the stair width is only about 30inches wide. Here however, I typically rest my hands on the handrail or wall while climbing or descending the stairs.

Overall then, 35-36inches (plus an allowance for structure) is about the narrowest I would feel comfortable with walking down without fear of touching or accidentally brushing against a wall (with structure this is more or less equal to the minimum width of 1m that I had posted previously).

On a starship, depending on the way you envisage things in your games, you may also have control panels and/or hand rails extending into the passageway.

Perhaps a reasonable thing to do is to find a passageway in your houses or where you may work (or go to school) and see what it is like trying to walk down it carrying luggage, food trays, toolkits, weapons (or a reasonable facsimile thereof), backpacks and/or satchels (depending on how your players typically outfit their characters) and then see if that width works out OK, if if a wider space would be better.

For me, this works out to a minimum of 1m, but I'd be more happy with the 1.5m widths from standard deckplan layouts, for passages that serve passenger spaces, galleys, cargo spaces, machinery spaces, spaces where you might need to where a VACC suit (or similar) or spaces where you might have the need to pass someone else, etc.

Just some additional thoughts.

Regards

PF

[Edit] PS. A final thing to also consider is how a person might move along the corridor in 0-G, which may necessitate hand rails, etc. [/Edit]
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Postby Starwolf » Wed Jul 14, 2010 5:42 am

DFW wrote:
silburnl wrote:
AndrewW wrote: Corridors should be half a square wide in a lot of places if you ask me.
That would only be 30 inches wide...
Some boats I have been on have just that as a corridor width. And we are not talking about naval ships. Ferrys between Norway and Denmark got less than a meter wide corridors at the cheapest accommodations.
Sure it will be a problem if you meet a fat person in the corridor.
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Postby Somebody » Wed Jul 14, 2010 9:43 am

Question:

How wide are the doors on an LAV-25 or a Stryker? Those are designed for resonably quick exit/entry for combat-ready infantry (Weapons, Ammo, minimal load, no backpacks etc) so they might be a useful width.
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Postby rust » Wed Jul 14, 2010 12:26 pm

Somebody wrote: How wide are the doors on an LAV-25 or a Stryker?
According to my sources, the entire LAV-25 Coyote is 250 cm wide, so
as far as I can estimate it from the pictures I have seen, each door is
no more than 100 cm wide, perhaps even less.
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Postby MektonZero » Sat Aug 14, 2010 3:55 am

rust wrote:
Somebody wrote: How wide are the doors on an LAV-25 or a Stryker?
According to my sources, the entire LAV-25 Coyote is 250 cm wide, so
as far as I can estimate it from the pictures I have seen, each door is
no more than 100 cm wide, perhaps even less.
I know the military is into miniaturization, but 10 inches wide for an armored vehicle with 4 inch wide doors seems a tad on the small side. :)

Going by a picture of the rear of a LAV-25 and it's known width, each of the two rear doors measures roughly 1.12m tall by .75m wide. The Stryker on the other hand has a loading ramp on the rear about 1.5m wide, set in the ramp is a pretty small .6m wide door.
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Postby Ishmael » Sat Aug 14, 2010 4:20 am

2.54cm = 1 inch
so 250cm is just under 100 inches, not 10
100cm is just under 40 inches

sounds like a decent size to me
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Postby Somebody » Sun Aug 15, 2010 5:20 pm

I dug out the 1:35 scale "Trumpeter" LAV-25 and took the measurements. The doors are 65cm wide. While that sounds small at first even a tall/broad shouldered human isn't much wider (about 70cm) so the average guy will fit. The infantry figures definitly do

The model is generally considered well done size/scale wise so the numbers should be okay.
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Postby silburnl » Tue Aug 17, 2010 4:15 pm

DFW wrote:From - Queen Elizabeth inside stateroom Image
Further to this, each of those beds are probably 90cm wide (+/- 15cm depending on how generous they are being). Which would make that stateroom about 3 dtons.

By way of comparison, check out the photo at this website (about 3/4 of the way down) of the quarters for part of the Royal Marine detachment which was carried onboard the Royal Yacht Brittania. That looks to be bunks and kitlockers for 12 men in about 2 dtons (that space looks to be 1.5m x 6m going by the size of the bunks). From what I recall of that documentary I mentioned upthread, the crew of Astute boats have bunkspaces with similar volume/head allocations - see for instance here, especially pictures 31 (crew) and 33 (captain's cabin).

Regards
Luke
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Postby locarno24 » Wed Aug 18, 2010 8:23 am

Also remember that a stateroom can keep the person(s) assigned to it alive for a month - which means that in addition to corridors and life support, you've also got the storage space for a month's food for two people to deduct.

Not much if you're going for the absolute basics - https://www.usaemergencysupply.com/food ... f_food.htm - but there will also (assuming you're not just eating straight from the tin) be food preparation space and waste disposal.
Understand that I'm not advocating violence.
I'm just saying that it's highly effective and I strongly recommend using it.
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Postby Captain Jonah » Wed Aug 18, 2010 9:27 am

Also add in the common areas, lounge etc, galley where the food is prepared for everyone, lockers for that food (and on a passenger ship they won't be eating tinned survival rations :D ), crockery and cutlery draws.

You can laugh at the crockery but make a pile of enough plates, bowls, cups, wine glasses, beer mugs, saucers, knives/forks/spoons, cooking and food prep items, water boiler, wine/beer chiller, fridge, freezer etc for 10+ people in the average small merchant. Add to that a small galley area to handle the food prep and lockers to hold enough reasonable food for 10 people for a month.

The barracks may allocate 2dtons per person but like a stateroom a lot of that goes on stuff other than the sleeping area. Once you add the galley/dinning area/head/lifesupport in you probably end up with 2 or 3 bunks in a single dton on a starship.

Waste disposal as Locarno24 mentions is going to be a lot more complex than somewhere to dump the food scraps. Is the water filtered and purified for recycling. Solid organic waste probably gets packed and either stored for disposal at the next starport of dumped into space towards the closest sun. New encounter, hit by frozen block of someone elses waste dump :D

All in all there are a lot of uses for the 4dtons of a stateroom that have nothing to do with the actual cabin.

One point to consider is that a dton is 1.5 x 3 metres by 3metre high. Dropping the height to 2.75 metre will add approx 10% to the useable floor space while still allowing 30cm (1 foot) of cable/pipe runs above the false ceiling and room for the grave plates below the deck with 7 feet of passenger head room. Simple holo false ceilings can make them seem a lot higher for the passengers comfort, just no wookies on board.

10% isn't much but when you are playing with 10 staterooms on a small ship that adds another 4dtons of space on the floor plan. Fits into the wiggle factor just don't do it for the cargo bay or those standard cargo pallets don't fit any more :D
Last edited by Captain Jonah on Sun Aug 22, 2010 2:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby BP » Wed Aug 18, 2010 3:11 pm

Captain Jonah makes good points. Though, lounge space is probably the biggest volume that needs to be contented with.

To clarify:

One standard deckplan 'ton' is 1.5m x 3m x 3m (a little shy of the actual volume for a metric ton of Hydrogen at STP).

A standard approx. 8' tall U.S. ceiling height would leave 22 inches or ~56cm of space (almost double mentioned above). I.e. almost 20% of volume, for ceiling/floor concealed life support and supplies...

Cookware and kitchenware for 10 does not have to take up hardly any noticeable space if they are stackable (or even collapsible) - for camping this stuff fits in a backpack with room to spare ( I have a complete set for 8 with cookware that fits in quite a bit less than 1 cubic foot, which is a mere fraction of a deckplan ton.).

The galley can be nothing more than a sink, sanitation device and microwave style box.

Foodstuffs will take up more space, but can be highly compact and wrappers can be nothing more than cellophane style (even edible in cases). Dehydrated is even better. Again - alla camping style (but hopefully better tasting). Water would have to be recycled.

Once the water is reclaimed from human waste (and wrappers), there is very little volume to worry about - and it can be incinerated, compacted, and or ejected.

Nuclear submarines can go a long time (25~30 years or more) without refueling, not sure how long they can/do go without replenishment, though tours can exceed 6 months! Such submarines are a lot more cramped than Traveller ships and have sizable crews (80+)...

I'm sure there are several members of the forum who could provide more useful info in this regards ;)
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Postby Captain Jonah » Wed Aug 18, 2010 3:34 pm

BP wrote:Captain Jonah makes good points. Though, lounge space is probably the biggest volume that needs to be contented with.

To clarify:

One standard deckplan 'ton' is 1.5m x 3m x 3m (a little shy of the actual volume for a metric ton of Hydrogen at STP).

A standard approx. 8' tall U.S. ceiling height would leave 22 inches or ~56cm of space (almost double mentioned above). I.e. almost 20% of volume, for ceiling/floor concealed life support and supplies...

Cookware and kitchenware for 10 does not have to take up hardly any noticeable space if they are stackable (or even collapsible) - for camping this stuff fits in a backpack with room to spare ( I have a complete set for 8 with cookware that fits in quite a bit less than 1 cubic foot, which is a mere fraction of a deckplan ton.).
Do you serve high passengers with it though :D
Someone paying for a high or even middle passage is going to want something a bit better than polystyrene cups and mess tins. You have a steward to serve the high passengers in the correct manner, that includes proper serving sets. Your travelling Noble who paid you Kcr6 for the jump may have some bad words about your service if you serve him morning coffee and wine with his meal and an evening beer using the same mug even if you wash it each time :D
The galley can be nothing more than a sink, sanitation device and microwave style box.

Foodstuffs will take up more space, but can be highly compact and wrappers can be nothing more than cellophane style (even edible in cases). Dehydrated is even better. Again - alla camping style (but hopefully better tasting). Water would have to be recycled.
Again what do you serve passengers. Higher tech yes but look at the galleys of civilian and military ships. They do a lot more to food than just sling it in a microwave. From what I know military ships serve decent meals, not the sort of fancy stuff high passengers expect but still a world away from freeze dried ration packs. Though spending a week eating ration packs would cut down on the solid waste disposal needs :shock:

I can see square tinned/boxed food etc, normal round tins waste a lot of space. Even boxed wine as long as you only serve it in glasses and never let the wine snobs see it comes in a plastic box :D

Trying to look at this from the civilian/merchant side of things where maximum efficiency takes second place to quality service. Passengers are going to want fresh produce where possible, a steak not a lump of vat grown meat, proper chips (fries to you American) etc.
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Postby silburnl » Wed Aug 18, 2010 3:46 pm

BP wrote:Nuclear submarines can go a long time (25~30 years or more) without refueling, not sure how long they can/do go without replenishment, though tours can exceed 6 months!
I saw something recently about a long-duration patrol. Lessee... it was on Charlie Stross' site I think... yup it's at comment #207 on this thread. Money quote:
Robert Sneddon wrote:He described how the sub was filled with supplies to the point where the crew were walking on a floor comprised of cases of tinned food in the passageways. He did not think that the crew could survive and function in a deployment much greater than the six months trip they underwent.
Regards
Luke
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Postby Captain Jonah » Wed Aug 18, 2010 4:26 pm

Charlie Stross wrote: Space Cadets. For starters, they're overwhelmingly white male Americans (plus a handful of Brits and Canadians). Politically they're right-of-centre (by American standards), and libertarian-leaning. They are enthusiastic proponents of space colonization, but will boost any other technological or scientific work oriented in an upward direction (as long as it's carried out by people who look like them: they're somewhat less gung-ho about the former Soviet, and now the Chinese, space programs).
He doesn't have a high opinion of us does he :D
Mostly guilty as charged, Brit, Male, White, Right wing (ish), Libertarian leanings. Not sure I see a problem there, oh well.

Anyway yes good quote, walking on boxes of tinned goods is why you have cargo, not something your passengers would put up with.

Going back to the Beltstrike tonnage. Beltstrike page 21. 150 person weeks equals one ton. Firstly beltstrike uses the old life support costs or Cr1000 per week, MonT uses Cr2000 per month. Anyway if as we have already talked about half of the life support pallet is actual life support stuff and half is food then 1dton gives 300 man/weeks of life support goods and 1dton gives 300 man/weeks of ration packs.

No passenger and many crews will not want to spend weeks or months eating basic ration packs. Quality foodstuffs are going to take up alot more space than iron rations. Wild guess here but I would say at least three times the space. This gives 100 man/weeks of quality consumables per dton or 25 man/months. For a ship with 10 crew thats half a dton in eatables and 0.2dtons of life support stuff. The life support stuff will be in a locker in engineering but the food is at least one square on the deck plans next to the galley.
Traveller: Nonsense, those rumours about me and crashes, no truth in them at all. I never had a landing I didn't walk away from!

ACTA-SF: Who are we, GORN. What do we want, Cruisers that can turn.... Wait, OK Escorts... Wait. I'll get back to you !
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Postby BP » Wed Aug 18, 2010 7:54 pm

All good points - and .5~1 tons in galley area is what I typically have allocated for small trade ships (200~400 ton), with the bulk scattered around the ship in floor storage (useful in various situations). Was just pointing out that such doesn't have to take up much space.

One notes that the post about long duration submarine tour references 'tins'... ('gourmet' I hope ;) ) Though, futuristic consumer and merchant travelers aren't necessarily gonna equate well to (volunteer) military crew, or campers.

For my part, with MGT rules, I have been generously making use of the Luxury tonnage to cover things like you mentioned. I also have a house rule allowing higher steward levels to affect passage prices...

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