Am I Blind? Can't Find the Damage for Vargr Bites

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ericphillips
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Am I Blind? Can't Find the Damage for Vargr Bites

Postby ericphillips » Tue Dec 29, 2009 8:45 am

How much damage does a Vargr inflict with a bite, and where is it listed?

Thanks
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Postby rust » Tue Dec 29, 2009 9:59 am

As I see it, a Vargr's bite is a normal natural weapon with the damage
depending on the Strength of the specific Vargr, for example 1D6 with
a Strength of up to 10 and 2D6 with a strength of 11 or more - see the
animal statistics in the encounters chapter of the core book.
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Postby Mongoose Si » Tue Dec 29, 2009 1:18 pm

Vargr teeth do 1d6+1 damage. Not sure of the page number (I've not seen the final book) but its listed under the traits section in the Character chapter.
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Postby rust » Tue Dec 29, 2009 1:24 pm

Mongoose Si wrote: ... its listed under the traits section in the Character chapter.
Then someone must have deleted it from my copy. :shock:
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Postby Mongoose Si » Tue Dec 29, 2009 1:58 pm

Also check under the Melee (Infighting) decription as it should be listed there as well (towards end of the same chapter).
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Postby dreamingbadger » Tue Dec 29, 2009 9:53 pm

rust wrote:
Mongoose Si wrote: ... its listed under the traits section in the Character chapter.
Then someone must have deleted it from my copy. :shock:
Page 3, RH Column, Para 2
"Look out behind you!"

"I wouldn't fall for that ol...dahhhhh!"
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Postby rust » Tue Dec 29, 2009 10:01 pm

dreamingbadger wrote: Page 3, RH Column, Para 2
I have the German version, and there this is probably the paragraph that
is titled (translated) "Natural Weapons". According to this, the natural wea-
pon of an alien species does "normal damage (x 1)", so I used the natural
weapon table from the encounters chapter for the damage.

I now suspect that this should be "+ 1" instead of " x 1", which would give
the "1D6+1" mentioned above ?
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Postby Vargr » Tue Dec 29, 2009 10:30 pm

I don't know about "Page 3, RH Column, Para 2" that's the Example of Play text.

In my (English) rulebook Pg 41 (Chapter 2 Character Creation - Aliens) there's the entry for "Natural Weapon", and it lists x1 Damage, not +1 Damage.

So rust and I have the same info.



In a nod to verissimilitude let me just say I think 1d6 for base Vargr bite damage seems a bit low. An unarmed melee attack does 1d6.

Have you ever been bitten by a dog? I have, several times. In fact the last time was a few weeks ago (I still have the scar).

It's impressive how easy a dog's bite cuts through skin and draws blood, it also hurts like heck. :D

And I'm talking about medium-sized pooches here. Remember a Vargr is 1.6m tall and weighs 60kg on average, have you ever seen a dog that big? If a Vargr bites you in the neck...well, good luck.

I think the Dmgx1 is a typo and Dmg+1 is correct. But I see this meaning a Vargr bite is the equivalent of "Teeth +1" on the animal weapons table.

This would mean Vargr bite 2d6 dmg for STR 10 or less and 3d6 dmg for STR 11+.

Looks about right.
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Postby Matian » Wed Dec 30, 2009 3:32 am

Okay, using the first printing of the Core Rulebook and AM2: Vargr here.

P.46 in the Core says that Vargr have a Natural Weapon (bite). P.41 says that natural weapons deal x1 damage. Referencing the Natural Weapons table on p.72, it's 1d6 for Strength <= 10, and 2d6 for Strength >= 11.

I can see why and where you're confused.

Luckily, AM2: Vargr clarifies this. On p.28, under "Melee (Infighting)" it states:
Infighting is a Vargr specialisation of the Melee skill that combines aspects of Melee (bite) and Melee (unarmed) skill used by other races. Vargr have unique close combat techniques that involve the use of their teeth and claws. For this reason, Melee (natural weapons) and Melee (unarmed) are not available to Vargr characters, they use Melee (infighting) instead. Melee (infighting) works in much the same way as Melee (unarmed) with the following differences.

Damage depends on the specific type of attack as specified by the player. A bite attack (if practical) deals 1d6+1 damage, all other forms of attack deal 1d6 damage. Due to their physiology, Vargr are unable to kick in close combat.
I would argue that the Alien Module supersedes the Core Rulebook. If you're going to be running a lot of Vargr, I recommend picking it up, it's very well done.
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Postby Vargr » Wed Dec 30, 2009 5:55 am

Well, that settles it then. :)

But I still think a meagre +1 damage difference between a Vargr bite and a punch is too little.

Given the choice, I'd rather be on the receiving end of a fist than getting my face bitten (probably bitten off!) by a humanoid canine.
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Postby Matian » Wed Dec 30, 2009 7:01 am

Vargr wrote:Well, that settles it then. :)

But I still think a meagre +1 damage difference between a Vargr bite and a punch is too little.

Given the choice, I'd rather be on the receiving end of a fist than getting my face bitten (probably bitten off!) by a humanoid canine.
It does the same amount of damage as a knife (CSC p.37), which I think is accurate. Dog bites are fatal, but only after a LOT of bites, not just one. You're also forgetting that Vargr do a LOT of infighting, making most checks Average. Even a Vargr with Strength 7 and Melee (infighting) +0 could, if they rolled *very* well, do 11 damage on a bite attack (rolling a 12 to hit (+4 for the effect) and 6+1 on damage). That's enough to knock out the endurance of most characters, or at least do a number on certain kinds of armour.

If we're going by reducing a character to unconsciousness, a Weak character would have 9 points (4+5), an Average would have 15 (7+8), and a Strong would have 21 (10+11). Assuming an average Effect of +1 and an average damage roll of 3, we can get an average damage of 5.

With one hit, a Weak character is halfway to unconsciousness, an Average one-third of the way to unconsciousness, and a Strong one-quarter of the way to unconsciousness. That is, on average, three bites to knock out an Average character, and most dog bite victims manage to escape with severe damage while conscious. Also keep in mind that getting bitten enough to reduce one characteristic is IRL very close to getting your face bitten off.

It says later on in the same passage that Vargr almost never fight to unconsciousness, either. I think that most Vargr would be unsettled by someone fighting past the point where they should have stopped.

...And I was responding to 1d6+1 being too weak from the earlier discussion, not the +1 difference between a bite and a kick. I think it makes sense when you remember that a well-placed punch can do some really nasty stuff to you internally.

*House Rule*
Vargr strength modifier only counts for bites if positive. The jaw is one of the strongest muscles in the body, so even if a Vargr has poor upper-body strength, they'll still have an effective bite ability. Thus a punch could be 1d6-1 while a bite is still 1d6+1.

I think that resolves the discrepancy, and it's how I've always run it anyway.
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Postby dreamingbadger » Wed Dec 30, 2009 8:36 am

Vargr wrote:I don't know about "Page 3, RH Column, Para 2" that's the Example of Play text.

In my (English) rulebook Pg 41 (Chapter 2 Character Creation - Aliens) there's the entry for "Natural Weapon", and it lists x1 Damage, not +1 Damage.

So rust and I have the same info.
You are quoting from the main rulebook! I was quoting from Alien module 2!

Page 3 is Titled "Vargr Character Generation", the RHS Column, is Titled "Traits" and states
All Vargr can use their teeth and claws in combat. Teeth do 1d6+1 damage. Vargr claws are not as effective as animal claws and deal standard unarmed damage of 1d6.
To which I assume you add strength to
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Postby rust » Wed Dec 30, 2009 11:28 am

dreamingbadger wrote: You are quoting from the main rulebook! I was quoting from Alien module 2!
Ah, thank you, now I understand where the confusion came from. :D
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Postby jamming » Wed Dec 30, 2009 11:51 am

In one of the earlier Vargr, books there was a better explanation of what Grandfather or his "Children" did in the Vargr uplift. That besides making the hands more human-like and two legged they had to reduce the biting pressure from a normal canine, due to muscular and anatomical changes of posture and to enable vocal precision.
:?
I wish I could remember that book and page number, sure some other ol'Grognard will remember though. :wink:
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Postby Mongoose Si » Wed Dec 30, 2009 1:09 pm

rust wrote:
dreamingbadger wrote: You are quoting from the main rulebook! I was quoting from Alien module 2!
Ah, thank you, now I understand where the confusion came from. :D
I was also referencing the Vargr book so sorry for any confusion there!

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