Heavy Gravity Worlders

Discuss the Traveller RPG and its many settings
Tathlum
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Postby Tathlum » Fri Aug 29, 2008 6:58 pm

Which raises the question, how low a G environment do you need to lower strength?

Also TNE had a Con penalty for high-G worlders to represent added strain on the Human system. Sounds reasonable. Is it?
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Postby rust » Fri Aug 29, 2008 7:09 pm

Tathlum wrote:Which raises the question, how low a G environment do you need to lower strength?
As far as I know, basically any value below 1 G would reduce strength.
The human body begins to dissolve (sorry, I do not know the right word)
unused muscles rather quickly, which is why athletes need almost daily
training to keep their strength.
Also TNE had a Con penalty for high-G worlders to represent added strain on the Human system. Sounds reasonable. Is it?
It sounds reasonable to me. The heart and the entire circulatory system
(again, I do not know the right word), as well as the bones, muscles and
sinews, would doubtless suffer under High G conditions.
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Postby EDG » Fri Aug 29, 2008 7:15 pm

Humans are adapted to a pretty narrow range of earth-like conditions (funnily enough ;)).

Higher or lower gravity - and higher or lower oxygen content in the atmosphere - would cause problems for us in the long term. You can have some degree of adaptation but I think it'll only go so far without some major genetic engineering.
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Postby Tathlum » Fri Aug 29, 2008 7:16 pm

So below 1G lowers str and above about 1.4G (1.1?, 1G?) lowers Con, realistically?

I kinda like that. Environment away from where you evolved hurts your biological system.

EDIT; however given thousands of years of high tech colonisation of space would it be safe to assume that the heavy genetic work has been done, and modern people on these worlds are equiped to deal with their environment.
Does this mean that homeworld modifiers to your scores are pointless? A human body genetically built for a high-G world, probably wouldn't get the strain mentioned above, right?

How would these geneered bodies react in higher/lower G environment? Would they get modifiers?
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Postby rust » Fri Aug 29, 2008 7:28 pm

Tathlum wrote:So below 1G lowers str and above about 1.4G (1.1?, 1G?) lowers Con, realistically?
I think I remember that the upper limit for human comfort is somewhere
between 1.1 and 1.2 G, above that the human body begins to suffer -
but of course 1.0 G is best. :D
Does this mean that homeworld modifiers to your scores are pointless? A human body genetically built for a high-G world, probably wouldn't get the strain mentioned above, right?
How would these geneered bodies react in higher/lower G environment? Would they get modifiers?
I very much doubt that it is possible to answer these questions, there
simply are not enough facts (e.g. about geneering humans) to base an
opinion on. :?
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Re: ...short, muscled, big boned...

Postby AKAramis » Sat Aug 30, 2008 10:53 pm

Xoph wrote:So heavy gravity worlders would be squat, muscular, and square types... perhaps they'd have beards and drink ale and ejoy machines. I swear I've heard of a Squat abhuman like this before. :wink:
Yeah, in the GW-UK Traveller Universe, where the emperor is confined to a golden throne.
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Postby EDG » Sat Aug 30, 2008 11:11 pm

What, you think that 40K is Traveller now?
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Postby Tathlum » Sat Aug 30, 2008 11:21 pm

To be fair, Squats are long gone from 40K Tyranids ate them.

Squat fan; All of them? Surely some escape...
GW; Nope, all dead. For ever. Like they never existed. And for all players who started in 3rd ed or later, they never did. Right? Right. Now lets never speak of this again.

And they never did......
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Postby Lane Shutt » Sun Aug 31, 2008 7:20 am

IMHO there are two things not considered in previous posts.

The non linear nature of game stats and the human bodies ability to adapt to it's environment.

The human max of 15 Str represents a person with the best natural ability who dedicates incredible time and resources to develop their body. Reaching this goal takes the equivalent dedication of becoming a respected professional in a skill. On a game mechanics level look at the requirements assuming 4 terms with 2 skill rolls each , roll 2x6 on stat generation, roll a 6 (varies with table) on 3 skill rolls, thats a 1/6^5 chance and requires 37% of your skill rolls.

Humans have adapted to extreme conditions here on earth, notably heat, cold, lack of water and thin atmosphere. Some of these changes can occur in only a couple years such as comfort ranges for temperature. Move from the southern US to the northern states and eventually you acclimate to the new temperature patterns but loose your tolerance for the heat. More radical adaption would be the Eskimo people who have different fat distribution for natural insulation, or natives of the Andes mountains who live live at high altitude (thin air) but have similar endurance of people at sea level.

After a few hundred years the population of a high G world may adapt physically without major appearance changes. human females already have a slightly higher muscle efficiency and there are at least two types of muscle fibers with different proportions between people. Also consider that Chimpanzees, fairly close relatives, have a muscle efficiency several times that of humans and the bone structure to handle it.

My suggestion on handling high G natives would be
1.0-1.2G no bonus
1.21- 1.5G rolls of 2 become 3, 50% chance of +1 Str, 50% chance of +1 End
1.51 + Roll of 2-3 become 4, +1 Str, 25% chance of extra +1 Str, 75% chance of +1 End

Max Str is 15 + 1? +1?, where ? is a 50% chance for each +1 the receive.
ex Character from 1.6 G world rolls a 10, +1 str auto, fails the extra +1 roll. his Str is 11 and there is a 50% chance his max would be 16.

I would also require characters to devote time to maintaining their High G Strength bonus. Frequent heavy workouts at 1G or less frequent workouts at higher G. Loss of a stat bonus would also lower their max and require extended time at higher G.
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Postby AKAramis » Sun Aug 31, 2008 8:11 am

EDG wrote:What, you think that 40K is Traveller now?
Hell, no. But it looks to have originally been their TU, and grown.
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Postby EDG » Sun Aug 31, 2008 9:48 am

AKAramis wrote:Hell, no. But it looks to have originally been their TU, and grown.
For crying out loud, can't you people just accept an original SF background for what it is without trying to claim it's Traveller? Some folks have even been crazy enough to claim that "Alien" is Traveller...!

Not every SF setting has anything to do with Traveller you know - in fact, none of them are related at all. That includes Alien, that includes 40K and that includes Firefly. Read my lips, they are not Traveller.

Do they share some similarities with Traveller? Sure, in some cases they do. But that doesn't imply that they're derivative of it or related to it - just that they have some tropes in common with it, that's all.
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Postby Tathlum » Sun Aug 31, 2008 4:22 pm

Lane Shutt wrote:IMHO there are two things not considered in previous posts.

The non linear nature of game stats and the human bodies ability to adapt to it's environment.
Actually the ability to adapt WAS mentioned, it was just that some posters believe that this ability is less pronounced then we and past editions have assumed. One poster even suggested that building up muscle would not be an advantage.
It was also raised that a high-G environment would damage your endurance and health, not raise it.

Now, by all means disagree, this is not my area of expertise but I'm interested in hearing more, but this fact was considered and found wanting.
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Postby rust » Sun Aug 31, 2008 4:50 pm

Unfortunately there are no hard data about the possible adaptation of
the human body to a high-G environment, as there have been no long
term experiments at all.
We only have some information on the effects of weightlessness, and
these seem to prove that the human body is far less adaptable than it
was expected some years ago.
If you are interested in details, these would be a good start, I think:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_adaptation_to_space

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_medicine
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Postby AKAramis » Mon Sep 01, 2008 6:11 pm

EDG wrote:
AKAramis wrote:Hell, no. But it looks to have originally been their TU, and grown.
For crying out loud, can't you people just accept an original SF background for what it is without trying to claim it's Traveller? Some folks have even been crazy enough to claim that "Alien" is Traveller...!
Alien, no.
Firefly, possibly, since Joss did admit it was based in a popular SF RPG in an interview, and it shares so many tropes with Traveller, and a number of them do not exist in other games of the era.

40K gets its tropes from designers who both played AND WROTE FOR Traveller. It blends these tropes with a fantasy miniatures ruleset they already had, and some divergences. It isn't the OTU, but it is a great fit with Traveller rules. Even down to the treatment of psionicists, and "All marines wear Battledress" of LKW's articles in JTAS (which, BTW, predates WH40K). It's an excellent setting, and quite honestly, it is at least heavily influenced by Traveller. Whether they actually played Traveller rules in that setting, well, it's implied in some early stuff that they developed the setting then built the game.

Your adamant stance that they are simple coincidence is both ill informed and rather comical.
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Postby EDG » Mon Sep 01, 2008 6:30 pm

AKAramis wrote:Your adamant stance that they are simple coincidence is both ill informed and rather comical.
Your continued stance (without any evidence beyond your own speculation) that every SF background involving spaceships is based on Traveller is what's comical. 40K is is no way an "ATU". So it's got an Emperor, and psionicists, and people in clunky armour, and spaceships - but that's about all the similarity it has to the OTU. A few similarities doesn't make it "based on Traveller" - and just because once upon a long ago its authors (who may or may not even be at GW anymore) wrote a few things for Traveller doesn't mean that 40K in its current form (or even its form a decade ago) is based on Traveller.

The difference is that I assume that a background isn't "Traveller-based" unless I am shown direct, solid evidence to the contrary. You on the other hand assume that a background is "Traveller-based" with no evidence at all beyond your unfounded conjecture and inferences.
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Postby rust » Mon Sep 01, 2008 6:43 pm

Well, why not go one step backwards in science fiction history:

Both Traveller and Warhammer 40K were influenced by Heinlein's
"Starship Troopers" (battledress ...) and other Golden Age science
fiction (psionics, etc.), so there is no need to look for Traveller as
an "ancestor" of Warhammer 40K.

Whether the designers of Warhammer 40K had anything to do with
Traveller is a somewhat moot point, because the ideas both games
have in common predate both games by many years.

And as for the rules - well, all game designers take a look at many
of the already available games when designing their own games,
since there is no need to invent the wheel a second time.

But this does not prove that all fantasy games are clones of D&D or
all science fiction games clones of Traveller.
Last edited by rust on Mon Sep 01, 2008 6:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby EDG » Mon Sep 01, 2008 6:46 pm

rust wrote:Whether the designers of Warhammer 40K had anything to do with Traveller is a somewhat moot point, because the ideas both games
have in common predate both games by many years.
Not least of which is all the pseudo-medieval Inquisition imagery (and latin usage) of 40K...
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Postby Tathlum » Mon Sep 01, 2008 7:48 pm

Calling the 40K universe an alternate TU grossly overstates the influence Traveller had on 40K.
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Postby AKAramis » Mon Sep 01, 2008 8:20 pm

The commonalities in widely varied tech in even adjacent systems, the rabid anti-psionic attitudes, the marines as battledress, the locally raised army troops being carted off to fight elsewhere, the strong nobility, the rampant inhabitation of inhospitable worlds, the rough upper tech level (TTL 16 for the 40K universe, due to matter transmission); cheap and easy gravitics and fusion, local autonomy of nobles, massive bureaucracies, age of sail ship thinking, Merchants as the primary spacefarers...

Calling it an ATU is a humorous but mild exaggeration. The parallels dwarf the much more visible differences.

Differences including the inquisition and religion-based modality, and 38 thousand years from now rather than 3800, and the neo-latinism and neoludditism. Then there are the fantasy port-over elements: Elves, Dwarves, ratlings, Orcs... Demons...

Its origins clearly lie closely intertwined with traveller. It rapidly grew away from Traveller, but it's close kin setting-wise. (As much as f not more than the Iron Empires setting by C. Moeller, who admits Traveller being the inspiration for IE.)

Apply Occam's razor: it looks and feels like a religious flavor of Traveller. The authors had been official licensees of Traveller, and produced OTU works, too. It's different enough to not be plagiarism, but close enough that the roots of the authors show clearly.
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Postby Klaus Kipling » Mon Sep 01, 2008 8:33 pm

The resemblances to the OTU are tenuous and circumstantial.

Dune via Starship Troopers nets you an Empire and Battle Dress. The fact that it's based on the existing GW fantasy Warhammer from '83 gives it a stronger inspiration. And if anything, it most resembles the Empire of Termight from 2000AD's Nemesis the Warlock, and the designers were probably reading that every week. Those are all bound to be greater influences than the OTU.

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