An Immediate Ban on the OTU - Effective 8.11.08

Discuss the Traveller RPG and its many settings
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Postby GamerDude » Fri Aug 22, 2008 5:42 pm

lastbesthope wrote:You may not realse it, but you do realise that your ban as dated doesn't get enforced on this side of the atlantic for about 2 and a half more months?

:lol:

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Postby FreeTrav » Fri Aug 22, 2008 10:01 pm

ParanoidGamer wrote:While I understand the desire for knowing what is canon/OTU, I probably will never understand the intensity some people will push to have a product they are overly emotionally attached to be canon/OTU.
It's not really that difficult to understand; it is simply an issue of THEIR image of the Canonical Universe (OTU) being accepted as part of the common baseline. "I was right! It is this way! Now you see that you should defer to my proven wisdom!"
But, having a clear canon/OTU gives all of us a base line to discuss ideas from.
Exactly, and I think this is one of the key points in my flowery verbosity above. We need that baseline, but always keep in mind that it's merely a starting point for discussion. Even discussing what you do or don't like about a canonical product is venturing into IMTU territory; such discussion are, really, about hypothetical products that differ from the Canon. Fansites are elaborations on that, as well. And we know that there are a number of popular fansites out there - just look at the Downport portal for a few of them, or my own links page at Freelance Traveller.
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Re: In Re Canon...

Postby FreeTrav » Fri Aug 22, 2008 10:10 pm

rust wrote:
FreeTrav wrote: To a player (which includes the Referee, the arbiter of the reality of the Story), the canon status of any material is Irrelevant.
...
Even so, Canon must always defer to IMTU in the final analysis, for when we play, we make Traveller _our_ Game, and none shall gainsay us that power.
I liked the entire text very much, but could I please have these two sen-
tences carved in stone and painted red ? :D
Carving them in stone in an appropriate typeface would look quite ponderously impressive, but I think that painting it red would really detract from the impressive ponderosity. :mrgreen:
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Re: In Re Canon...

Postby FreeTrav » Fri Aug 22, 2008 10:13 pm

atpollard wrote:
rust wrote:
FreeTrav wrote: To a player (which includes the Referee, the arbiter of the reality of the Story), the canon status of any material is Irrelevant.
...
Even so, Canon must always defer to IMTU in the final analysis, for when we play, we make Traveller _our_ Game, and none shall gainsay us that power.
I liked the entire text very much, but could I please have these two sen-
tences carved in stone and painted red ? :D
He is not an Author. BURN HIM!!
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Postby GamerDude » Sat Aug 23, 2008 3:57 am

FreeTrav wrote:
ParanoidGamer wrote:While I understand the desire for knowing what is canon/OTU, I probably will never understand the intensity some people will push to have a product they are overly emotionally attached to be canon/OTU.
It's not really that difficult to understand; it is simply an issue of THEIR image of the Canonical Universe (OTU) being accepted as part of the common baseline. "I was right! It is this way! Now you see that you should defer to my proven wisdom!".
Yes!... and that's EXACTLY why I railed against certain folks... that attitude.

Knowing who to ask a question as well as how to ask them, and then being able to accept their answer received even if it isn't what we think is right goes a long way to having an intelligent conversation instead of a dogma throwing contest.
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Postby Jame Rowe » Sat Aug 23, 2008 2:17 pm

I took this whole OTU ban as a gigantic birthday present! :lol:
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Postby EDG » Sat Aug 23, 2008 5:18 pm

ParanoidGamer wrote:Knowing who to ask a question as well as how to ask them, and then being able to accept their answer received even if it isn't what we think is right goes a long way to having an intelligent conversation instead of a dogma throwing contest.

You have to be sure to ask the right question of the right person. Asking the overall GURPS line editor about the canonicity of Interstellar Wars isn't going to get you the right answers - I went straight to Loren (who is much closer to SJG's Traveller licensing than Sean Punch is) and he said (publicly on the SJG boards ) "SJG got a different [license] for the IW books, and I don't remember if Marc insisted on "alternate" status for IW . . . I'm pretty sure he didn't, but my memory has been known t[o] be faulty before." Not a definitive answer, but the implication is that it's likely that it's not an alternate, and I strongly doubt that Sean Punch knows any better than Loren about these matters.

And it's one thing for Marc to publicly declare "this is canon", it's another for him to just tell one guy privately that "this is canon". Of course people are going to take the public declarations over the private ones.

So while the answers you got may satisfy you personally, they won't necessarily satisfy others. Doubtless you'll argue that they should, but I guess you'll have to live with the fact that they don't.
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Postby GamerDude » Sun Aug 24, 2008 1:39 am

EDG wrote:You have to be sure to ask the right question of the right person. Asking the overall GURPS line editor about the canonicity of Interstellar Wars isn't going to get you the right answers - I went straight to Loren (who is much closer to SJG's Traveller licensing than Sean Punch is) and he said (publicly on the SJG boards ) "SJG got a different [license] for the IW books, and I don't remember if Marc insisted on "alternate" status for IW . . . I'm pretty sure he didn't, but my memory has been known t[o] be faulty before." Not a definitive answer, but the implication is that it's likely that it's not an alternate, and I strongly doubt that Sean Punch knows any better than Loren about these matters.
Since Loren "doesn't remember" his comments don't help. So while you were getting the "I really don't know answer" I got the definitive "everything GT is ATU'.
And it's one thing for Marc to publicly declare "this is canon", it's another for him to just tell one guy privately that "this is canon". Of course people are going to take the public declarations over the private ones.
sure of course, if someone can get him to do it. With all the hell going on over all this, I wouldn't be surprised he doesn't... Why get into a flame war when he can answer the question asked by one person who did it politely and in a way that doesn't embroil him in the debate.
So while the answers you got may satisfy you personally, they won't necessarily satisfy others. Doubtless you'll argue that they should, but I guess you'll have to live with the fact that they don't.
I really don't care if the private answers I got satisfy certain people or not, because honestly I don't think these people would accept what he's said to me if those people met Marc in person and he said the exact same thing.

Believe what you want, I don't think anyone really cares what you think on the subject anymore and I am one of those. My comments have been made without reference to you for just that reason, you've been moved to the fringe on that argument, but I reply this time just out of courtesy and to refute your "Doubtless you'll argue..." comment.

Again, everyone especially the great EDG can think what they want. I've gotten my answers (and had a great laugh discussing you by name at the same time). (NOTE: Do NOT take that as any indication that this discussion occurred with any specific person you think it happened with.)

Toodles.
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Postby RandyT0001 » Sun Aug 24, 2008 3:31 am

ParanoidGamer wrote:sure of course, if someone can get him to do it. With all the hell going on over all this, I wouldn't be surprised he doesn't...
Surprise, convenient for you.
Why get into a flame war when he can answer the question asked by one person who did it politely and in a way that doesn't embroil him in the debate.

I really don't care if the private answers I got satisfy certain people or not, because honestly I don't think these people would accept what he's said to me if those people met Marc in person and he said the exact same thing.
Marc making a post on this board stating GT:IW is part of the Gurps ATU and/or briefly explaining empty hex jumps/deep space (massless) jumps changes from the IW time period to the Classic era would embroil him into the debate and not settle the questions. That's strange. If he makes a post on this forum or tells Loren, a fan trusted source, to make a post on his behalf with the answers he could still stay away from the 'flame war' and all of the fans and not just one would know the truth.
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Postby captainjack23 » Sun Aug 24, 2008 4:21 am

RandyT0001 wrote:
ParanoidGamer wrote:sure of course, if someone can get him to do it. With all the hell going on over all this, I wouldn't be surprised he doesn't...
Surprise, convenient for you.
Why get into a flame war when he can answer the question asked by one person who did it politely and in a way that doesn't embroil him in the debate.

I really don't care if the private answers I got satisfy certain people or not, because honestly I don't think these people would accept what he's said to me if those people met Marc in person and he said the exact same thing.
Marc making a post on this board stating GT:IW is part of the Gurps ATU and/or briefly explaining empty hex jumps/deep space (massless) jumps changes from the IW time period to the Classic era would embroil him into the debate and not settle the questions. That's strange. If he makes a post on this forum or tells Loren, a fan trusted source, to make a post on his behalf with the answers he could still stay away from the 'flame war' and all of the fans and not just one would know the truth.
Well, and this is just a general observation, that's not necessarily so; some people aren't as comfortable with having others get embroiled for them, or for tossing a bomb over their shoulder and walking away. And, whoever posted it, it would blow up. Just saying, that's all.

I note too that neither Loren, Marc or even Gar have checked in here on any of these topics, (even via a public post sent on by a third party), and I'm sure they could. So, we can, I think, assume that they don't want to.
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Postby EDG » Sun Aug 24, 2008 5:14 am

ParanoidGamer wrote:Since Loren "doesn't remember" his comments don't help. So while you were getting the "I really don't know answer" I got the definitive "everything GT is ATU'.
The question wasn't "is everything GT an ATU" though - I know GT is an ATU. What you continually fail to comprehend is that the divergence point in the histories of CT and GT is well after the IW era. So the question you should have asked was "is the IW era an ATU as well?"

And I know the rules of the game are different, but those don't matter here (oddly enough I don't hear people claiming that TNE is an ATU, despite a lot of the technology being different there too). We're talking about the history of the setting itself, not the way the interface between players and the game works. And it's obvious that the IW era is set in the historical past of the CT Era, just like TNE is set in its future. GT however is not set in the near future of the CT era because its timeline does not include the assassination of Strephon that leads to the OTU of MT, TNE, and 1248 - thus it's an ATU.

If you can't comprehend that then I have little faith that you did actually ask the right questions to start with. But this is hardly surprising considering that you have such poor comprehension of GURPS that you still insist that GT refers to speed as Acceleration despite all the evidence in the books to the contrary.

Either way, if it makes you feel good to have gotten answers directly from Marc or Kromm about how things really are then bully for you, but I really don't care if they did, and I don't really think anyone else does either.
Last edited by EDG on Sun Aug 24, 2008 6:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby captainjack23 » Sun Aug 24, 2008 5:19 am

EDG wrote:(oddly enough I don't hear people claiming that TNE is an ATU, despite a lot of the technology being different there too).

No, no no.
Didn't you read the TML ?
TNE isn't an ATU, it's an abomination. :):):):
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Postby aspqrz » Sun Aug 24, 2008 5:54 am

captainjack23 wrote:TNE isn't an ATU, it's an abomination. :):):):
Indeed! :shock: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :shock:

And Virus had 616* lines of code.

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Postby captainjack23 » Sun Aug 24, 2008 6:20 am

aspqrz wrote:
captainjack23 wrote:TNE isn't an ATU, it's an abomination. :):):):
Indeed! :shock: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :shock:

And Virus had 616* lines of code.
616 ? How 'bout:

Code: Select all

1 BEGIN KILLKILLKILL;
2   Include <KILKILLKILL.pak>;
3.  SIGWAIT [&ALIVE, &NETSOC] ;
4   IF (&ALIVE) =YES
5     THEN {KILL};
6   ELSEIF (&NETSOC =YES and &NETAD NE 0)
7   THEN COPY /*.KILLKILLKILL.*>[remoteHost.NETAD];
8  ELSEIF NETSOC NE YES  
9    THEN {GOTO 4};
10   ELSE
11   {GOTO 3};
12  #END
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Postby EDG » Sun Aug 24, 2008 6:28 am

Ooo, GOTO statements? That'll get you flogged nowadays ;).

(and yes, I know what the TML was like when TNE came out. But still, it did turn out that TNE was considered as the OTU despite all that, and despite the obvious differences in technology. So how the hell does one explain that ships went from being based on reactionless thrusters to being based on HEPLaR plasma thrusters between MT and TNE?? If that sort of difference can be ignored then the rules differences between GT and CT can surely be ignored just as easily).
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Postby captainjack23 » Sun Aug 24, 2008 7:48 am

EDG wrote:Ooo, GOTO statements? That'll get you flogged nowadays ;).
Heh. Yeah, and worse. I was trying to make it consistent with the code from when VIRUS was introduced.
I failed to stop myself from indenting, but I did skip any commenting.....

just for fun, you'll notice the END statement is commented out......
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Postby aspqrz » Sun Aug 24, 2008 1:33 pm

EDG wrote:So how the hell does one explain that ships went from being based on reactionless thrusters to being based on HEPLaR plasma thrusters between MT and TNE?? If that sort of difference can be ignored then the rules differences between GT and CT can surely be ignored just as easily).
Canonista: Heresy! Burn the Witch! :twisted:

<sigh>

I really agree with you. Sadly, there are those that would burn us both for simply suggesting such thoughts :wink:

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Postby atpollard » Sun Aug 24, 2008 2:52 pm

ParanoidGamer wrote:
lastbesthope wrote:You may not realse it, but you do realise that your ban as dated doesn't get enforced on this side of the atlantic for about 2 and a half more months?

:lol:

LBH
Damm you backward eurogamers! DAMMM YOU! {giggle}
Drag 'em to the Hague! Clearly these are crimes against humanity.

Unless 'Immediate' also has a different meaning 'across the atlantic', their defense will not hold up.
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Postby rust » Sun Aug 24, 2008 3:07 pm

atpollard wrote: Unless 'Immediate' also has a different meaning 'across the atlantic', their defense will not hold up.
Well, if we define "immediate" as the time between the announcement
of an immediate action of a European bureaucracy and the moment that
announced action takes place ... what about 2011 for that ban ? :D
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Postby lastbesthope » Sun Aug 24, 2008 7:29 pm

atpollard wrote:
ParanoidGamer wrote:
lastbesthope wrote:You may not realse it, but you do realise that your ban as dated doesn't get enforced on this side of the atlantic for about 2 and a half more months?

:lol:

LBH
Damm you backward eurogamers! DAMMM YOU! {giggle}
Drag 'em to the Hague! Clearly these are crimes against humanity.

Unless 'Immediate' also has a different meaning 'across the atlantic', their defense will not hold up.
It's nothing to ddo with that, it's the way the date was written.

The US uses mm/dd/yy, most of the rest of the world seems to use dd/mm/yy.

Now if he'd bothered to write the date out longhand, or specify it in ISO 8601 we wouldn't have this problem :lol:

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