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Bygoneyrs
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Postby Bygoneyrs » Thu Jun 19, 2008 4:23 pm

I would also like to comment that "Martin" has created some pretty good stuff and look forward to Spinward Marshes and anything else he writes. Now if I can only get him to make sure it all is offerred in "printed" format too!!!

Penn
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Postby Allensh » Thu Jun 19, 2008 7:05 pm

MJD wrote:Then suddenly Marc Miller stepped in. 'Someone' (he never told me who) had informed him that I was planning to slip uauthorised canon changes into the Marches book.
[ snip]

Anyway, Marc scotched all changes, alterations, fixes and whatnot based on this unknown person's assertion. So we used the UWP data straight from Supplement 3
I am struggling here not to launch into a truly epic rant.

Marc needs to learn not to listen to some of these people. They have axes to grind, agendas to promote and a sense of 'entitlement' when it comes to Traveller that is completely and wholly unjustified. They do not own Traveller, no matter how long they have been playing it. Only Marc and his designated licensees have the right to control "canon". (be it known that I absolutely hate that term).

How could anyone possibly object to fixing the "science" behind a science fiction RPG so it lines up with what we actually know about such science now as opposed to the mid-seventies?

I don't think anything written that long ago for Traveller should be sacrosanct - not UWP's, not historical events, not ANYTHING. Traveller needs to be the best it can be NOW, and stop catering to these...misguided persons (much better than what I typed and then erased).

I look forward greatly to the Spinward Marches book.

Allen
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Postby Captain Brann » Thu Jun 19, 2008 7:36 pm

Allensh wrote:
MJD wrote:Then suddenly Marc Miller stepped in. 'Someone' (he never told me who) had informed him that I was planning to slip uauthorised canon changes into the Marches book.
[ snip]

Anyway, Marc scotched all changes, alterations, fixes and whatnot based on this unknown person's assertion. So we used the UWP data straight from Supplement 3
I am struggling here not to launch into a truly epic rant.

Marc needs to learn not to listen to some of these people. They have axes to grind, agendas to promote and a sense of 'entitlement' when it comes to Traveller that is completely and wholly unjustified. They do not own Traveller, no matter how long they have been playing it. Only Marc and his designated licensees have the right to control "canon". (be it known that I absolutely hate that term).

How could anyone possibly object to fixing the "science" behind a science fiction RPG so it lines up with what we actually know about such science now as opposed to the mid-seventies?

I don't think anything written that long ago for Traveller should be sacrosanct - not UWP's, not historical events, not ANYTHING. Traveller needs to be the best it can be NOW, and stop catering to these...misguided persons (much better than what I typed and then erased).

I look forward greatly to the Spinward Marches book.

Allen


It also would be a good idea to remember that even people like me who have been playing games for around 40 years haven't got any original stuff and this is the first time we have got around to buying any Traveller rules.
I had heard of the game and seen it played once in the distant past, but never had anyone who wanted to play that game at the time. I do not just buy things in case of later need I need a clear need for them, I have such a need now and am happy to be able to buy a new version of this game.

But I know little about the universe or anything else from the past so I need updated books which have a life of there own and not just old stuff re-relisded which could be done at a fraction of the cost. I have enjpyed looking a the core book and am waiting on some of the others to start working ona game for my regular D&D players.

Chris
PS keep up the good work
With Jesus in your life you have all the love you will need.

http://chrisbrann.wordpress.com/rpg-campaign-stories/
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Postby MJD » Thu Jun 19, 2008 8:42 pm

Marc was, I think, misled. Someone told him that I was about to do bad things and he acted to prevent it. The blame lies mainly with whoever put the invented accusation in front of Marc.

I think it could have been handled better; perhaps even with a little credit to my professional integrity, but the bottom line is that some jerk threw a spanner without bothering to find out what was really going on. Whether that was from malice or simply arrogant stupidity... or some other explanation that maybe even makes sense to whoever did it, I'll never know.

All I do know is that in the end, that jerk failed. We produced a book that rocks and will continue to rock for years. A new generation of players are coming to Traveller now thanks to the the great work Mongoose (and their inspired choice in freelancers!) are doing and those are the people we're writing for.

Not the folks who spend their time debating the implications of Page 23 of Trillion Credit Squadron; not the my-perfect-houserules-vs-yours flamemongers... but the people who will pick up Traveller as a game in its own right, take the Mongoose Marches as a setting on its own merits, and play the damn game.

Those are the people we're pitching to, and we've pitched them the best book anyone could have written on the subject. It rocks. We rock. Mongoose rocks.... (urgh, I think I just made myself seasick with all that rocking).

Ah well, some jerk threw a spanner but we won despite that. You know what else? Apart from BITS, for whom I have the highest respect, the only people who can publish in the OTU are.... Avenger Enterprises. Us.

If I were a vincidictive man I'd hope that sticks in the throat of whoever tried to derail us. Since I'm not (yeah, right....) I'll settle for a certain smug satisfation that we're the ones publishing Traveller materials and making money on them. The others, which includes the people who tried to mess up our efforts, are not able to do that.

Yeah, that's enough of a victory for me... that and the paycheck. I like money. Did I mention that?
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Postby SSWarlock » Thu Jun 19, 2008 8:58 pm

MJD wrote:If I were a vincidictive man I'd hope that sticks in the throat of whoever tried to derail us. Since I'm not (yeah, right....) I'll settle for a certain smug satisfation that we're the ones publishing Traveller materials and making money on them. The others, which includes the people who tried to mess up our efforts, are not able to do that.
Sooo..Conan was right?
Mongol General: What is best in life?
Conan: To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women.
:wink: :D
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Postby rje » Thu Jun 19, 2008 9:04 pm

Mongoose Acolyte wrote:
daryen wrote: BTW, I withdraw my comment about Andor/Andory. Apparently, that was not one of the items that MWM felt worth forwarding. That apparently means "Andory" is the name he wants used in this book. (I cannot fathom why, but it is his choice.)
I have to admit I went into 'Good grief - how did I miss that!' mode (to put it politely) when I read your first post. Was about to look at the list of things to change I was sent before I got to this post ('Phew - I did not mess up as bad as I thought' (put polite again)).

But, PHEW!

UWPs are a right pain to get right - there is just so many little things that can go wrong with a typo and these are difficult to spot. To be honest I would have prefered to keep Andor as well, it is a slightly annoying typo.
No, Andory is certainly not the correct form and I agree that it should be kept Andor. If Marc didn't forward it, then IMO that's because he forgot. Please check with him and make sure.
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Postby MJD » Thu Jun 19, 2008 9:05 pm

I'm not too bothered about other people losing, so long as I win.

Everyone wins is good, but if win is limited to one group then I want it to be mine.
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Postby MJD » Thu Jun 19, 2008 9:07 pm

Andor is right. It was misprinted on a map and later copied onto others but it's wrong.

Technically, at the time Supp 3 was produced Andor and Candory were not Droyne worlds, they were just red zoned for unknown reasons. The droyne thing was added later.
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Postby captainjack23 » Thu Jun 19, 2008 9:34 pm

Allensh wrote: I am struggling here not to launch into a truly epic rant.

Marc needs to learn not to listen to some of these people. They have axes to grind, agendas to promote and a sense of 'entitlement' when it comes to Traveller that is completely and wholly unjustified. They do not own Traveller, no matter how long they have been playing it. Only Marc and his designated licensees have the right to control "canon". (be it known that I absolutely hate that term).
Well, in all fairness, it must be noted that the purist canon tirade was matched by an equal, and equally venomous counter tirade on the "change everything" side. There are more than enough axes to grind, and quite a few of them fit into the "you didn't write this according to my criterea" camp, which has its own totally unjustified set of entitlements.

That said, at the end of the day, I think that two things stand out from this response by Marc, and previous iterations of this issue.

First, like dad always said, "I don't want fair , I want quiet".
Second (and this is the big one) he really doesn't think that this is an important issue, at all, especially in comparison to his agenda for updating Traveller.

Both of these, to me, point to "keep it as it was, at least that's already been printed, and at least we can move on without then wasting time arguing over what to change it to" as the solution of choice .

Also, its the latter one that really sticks in some peoples craw's - that he doesn't think the issue is important compared to what he thinks is important. I know this has been painted as a victory for the no change viewpoint, but honestly it isn't; it isn't a affirmation of the sanctity of canonfrom the creator , but rather a lack of interest in the topic and using existing material as the default. Marc changes rules systems for Trav all the time. If he decides to change canon,(whatever it is) he'll do it.
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Postby Bygoneyrs » Fri Jun 20, 2008 4:24 am

Well I could give a HOOT myself, but Martin is right and since he wrote the darn book should be allowed to "fix" some of the blairing mistakes made in the past. To heck with what was, since we are restarting anew again lets get it fixed correctly this time around.

I have played, collected, and GM'd Traveller for some 30 years now, and have been very lucky to be able to buy almost everything Traveller based plus alot more. My library for Traveller is huge, but if someone is willing to fix "in print" some of the bogus UWPs I am ok with that to. As it is I have done the same myself within my own ATU to them too. So what I the GM defines as is, is what stands in my game. So to HECK with the Goose Stepping MUST FOLLOW ONLY WHAT IS IN THE BOOKS crowd, get a life guys and lets fix it right this time around.

More power to you Mongoose and Martin...just remember to put it all into "PRINTED" format too!

Penn
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Postby captainjack23 » Fri Jun 20, 2008 5:42 am

Bygoneyrs wrote:Well I could give a HOOT myself, but Martin is right and since he wrote the darn book should be allowed to "fix" some of the blairing mistakes made in the past. To heck with what was, since we are restarting anew again lets get it fixed correctly this time around.

I have played, collected, and GM'd Traveller for some 30 years now, and have been very lucky to be able to buy almost everything Traveller based plus alot more. My library for Traveller is huge, but if someone is willing to fix "in print" some of the bogus UWPs I am ok with that to. As it is I have done the same myself within my own ATU to them too. So what I the GM defines as is, is what stands in my game. So to HECK with the Goose Stepping MUST FOLLOW ONLY WHAT IS IN THE BOOKS crowd, get a life guys and lets fix it right this time around.

More power to you Mongoose and Martin...just remember to put it all into "PRINTED" format too!

Penn
Ah, yes. My point about the pro-change arguments exactly..........

Without taking sides on the issue, I do point out that the easiest fix to the perceived glaring planetary issues is achieved with a pencil and some whiteout. :wink:

So, given that Marc is a games designer, who seems to like designing game systems, I suspect that this back and forth rhetoric may not have encouraged him very much at all to dive in and try to update planetary science too much....especially when one moves on to the "okay, then, what is more correct" part of the revision.

I am surprised that he gave Martin the go ahead to edit for accuracy and then yanked it due to someone else's interference, apparently without hearing his side of things.

Speaks volumes about frustration with the fanbase, perhaps; and seems to fit into a "I want quiet, not fair" approach to the issue.
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Postby MJD » Fri Jun 20, 2008 8:32 pm

I strongly suspect that Marc would have accepted some, most or even all of our suggestions had we been allowed to go through the proper channels as intended, which was Us - Mongoose line editor - Marc. By the time the fixbundle got to him it would have been a simple matter to pick which ones Marc wanted, if any.

The whole process was derailed when someone called Marc and, well basically lied to him, saying something to the effect that I was trying to sneak unsolicited canon changes through. Nobody asked what I was doing (and it was nobody's business but that of Mongoose and Marc anyhow) up to this point.

The odd thing was that Marc shot me a query which I got at 2AM asking what was going on. I made a half-assed and vague answer (because there seemed to be nothing amiss) and went to bed. By the time I looked at my mail 7 hours later there were 'measures in place' to deal with the problem and I was basically forbidden to make any changes to anything.

What really choked me was that a few weeks later Marc asked for some changes to be made, which would have been put forward to him if he hadn't gone off at half-cock over some b*****t sent to someone whose business it wasn't and who didn't know what was going on.

How do I know they had no idea what was going on? Well, as I say nobody asked me what I was doing and I didn't tell anyone. If they DID know what I was doing then they would not have said to Marc whatever it was they said... at least, they could not have said it without knowingly lying.

This goes beyond entrenched views on canon; someone took it upon himself to cause damage to Mongoose and to me by interfering in the production of a product. Whether this was deliberate malice (having received actual death threats over Traveller materials I would not be surprised) or simply a very special type of stupid I really don't know.

It is, however, disturbing that Marc gave credence to the allegations and did not bother to verify the situation.
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Postby captainjack23 » Fri Jun 20, 2008 9:00 pm

Well, I am sorry that whatever happened happened. Probably best we stop hashing it out at this point, as its into imponderables. I do wonder how much pissant email, threats and infantile politics Marc's had to put up with over the years.....could play into the situation, I guess.

My only suggestion, and it's worth what you pay for it, is that since this still seems to annoy you, and if your working relationship with Marc is at issue or an issue, you contact him directly; not to find out who the snitch was (I'm betting you know, anyway), but to let him know your concerns about how it was resolved without you getting a hearing - which isn't unreasonable given you were the author. I'm aware that you are a rational adult, and a professional one to boot, so you may well have thought about this option and acted as you see fit. Just feel it should be mentioned.

In the meantime, it does look like you've done a bang-up job on SM, and that it'll help MGT immesureably. Honestly, some wonky UWP's will only cause an issue for about a dozen consumers....and heck, at least you're being consistent with all the previous wonky iterations.

Hope this doesn't come across as too smarmy or huggy - I'm at work in my beurocratic environment, and am in project facilitator mode.......
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Postby MJD » Fri Jun 20, 2008 9:09 pm

I contacted Marc about it a while ago. I didn't get a reply and enough time has passed that I'm obviously not going to.

It would appear that 'whoever' has succeeded in damaging my relationship with Marc Miller. This is not a good thing, but it's how it is.

All I can say on the subject is... I get to write OTU Traveller materials and make money on them, and I'm pretty certain 'whoever' does not. If canon et al matters so much to them, well, I guess that's a fail.

Meantime, SM is and remains damn good. I must really write an invoice on it at some point.
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Postby Warlock32 » Fri Jun 20, 2008 9:15 pm

That's tough. It's hard to work on licensed properties anyway, let alone when someone has a stick up their tailpipe and screws with you.

As someone who has worked on Licenses ranging from Duke Nuke'em to BMW to Metroid, I know.

Don't let it get to you. What will be, will be. Just remain pleasant to Marc, don't let it color your correspondence, and, if I might offer some advice, keep it off the boards.

It won't do you, Mongoose, or Marc any good. The last thing you need is a negative rep.

You do good stuff, let that speak for you.
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Postby GeneralM@yhem » Sun Jun 22, 2008 7:52 pm

So 8 days left in June...do we have a release date for this and the other two books? :)
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Postby GypsyComet » Sun Jun 22, 2008 9:18 pm

daryen wrote:The UWPs are primarily from Supplement 3, with a few updated to the SMC.
Hmm. The SMC is where the "phantom system" first appeared, not to be explained until well into TNE...
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Postby daryen » Mon Jun 23, 2008 3:07 am

GypsyComet wrote:
daryen wrote:The UWPs are primarily from Supplement 3, with a few updated to the SMC.
Hmm. The SMC is where the "phantom system" first appeared, not to be explained until well into TNE...
Can someone remind me which is the "phantom system"? I know which is the "line dup system", which is the "disappearing system", and even the disappearing jump route. But I can never remember which "phantom system".
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Postby daryen » Mon Jun 23, 2008 3:12 am

MJD wrote:Andor is right. It was misprinted on a map and later copied onto others but it's wrong.

Technically, at the time Supp 3 was produced Andor and Candory were not Droyne worlds, they were just red zoned for unknown reasons. The droyne thing was added later.
Just for the record, it should be "Andor", not "Andory".

MJD is also correct in that when S3 was published, they were just red zones. It wasn't until SMC that they became Droyne worlds. However, that they are Droyne worlds has been completely retconned such that they are known Droyne worlds even in 1105.

Therefore, the other little admitted fact is that both Andor and Candory should have government codes of "X", not "3".

However, I want to be explicitly clear that, while both of these items were reported to MWM, he chose to delete them when sending the list of changes to Mongoose. Therefore, the world is shown as being named "Andory" and the government codes are listed as "3" because that is how MWM apparently wants them. Therefore, Mongoose has done exactly as they have been told to, "correct" or not.
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Postby cbrunish » Mon Jun 23, 2008 4:15 pm

My question is whether Regina will be tech level A or C. In S3 and 5th frontier war its tech level A. In Spinward Marches Campaign its tech level C.

Truthfully it makes much more sense for the capital of a subsector (and more) to have a tech level of C. On the stellar level a tech of A is pretty low.

Anyways looking forward to the new Spinward Marches!!!!

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