Not Impressed with MGT Preview #4

Discuss the Traveller RPG and its many settings
TrippyHippy
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Postby TrippyHippy » Fri Apr 18, 2008 6:38 pm

The one thing that gets my goat about all this faux-consumerist postering is that we can categorically guarantee that not one person here, or on the CotI boards, have actually spent a single penny yet on a Mongoose Traveller product.
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far-trader
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Postby far-trader » Fri Apr 18, 2008 6:48 pm

TrippyHippy wrote:The one thing that gets my goat about all this faux-consumerist postering is that we can categorically guarantee that not one person here, or on the CotI boards, have actually spent a single penny yet on a Mongoose Traveller product.
Well duh.

That's the whole point of free previews. To drum up interest and buzz, get people bugging to buy it. And that fails miserably if the quality of the preview is poor. Then you get people who might have been interested deciding to give it a pass, or wait for the second (corrected) printing.
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Postby Jame Rowe » Fri Apr 18, 2008 6:51 pm

far-trader wrote:Well duh.

That's the whole point of free previews. To drum up interest and buzz, get people bugging to buy it. And that fails miserably if the quality of the preview is poor. Then you get people who might have been interested deciding to give it a pass, or wait for the second (corrected) printing.
Aw, man, you mean I'm gonna have to wait another year to buy this?


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TrippyHippy
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Postby TrippyHippy » Fri Apr 18, 2008 7:03 pm

far-trader wrote:Well duh.

That's the whole point of free previews. To drum up interest and buzz, get people bugging to buy it. And that fails miserably if the quality of the preview is poor. Then you get people who might have been interested deciding to give it a pass, or wait for the second (corrected) printing.
The point is, at worst, the appropriate response from fans given free material should be 'oh, well, not for me'. Hardly the response we have been getting from a few individuals. And the emphasis really is on the 'few' here too, I would add. Personally, I am pretty content to spend my money on the product when it comes out. The only thing putting me off, honestly, are elements of the fanbase currently. It's a key factor in most games I invest in.
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Postby rust » Fri Apr 18, 2008 7:16 pm

far-trader wrote:And that fails miserably if the quality of the preview is poor.
True, but in this case I really do not see how anyone could consider the
quality of the preview to be poor.
All the complaints are about a minor problem with a deck plan, a prob-
lem that has been much worse with most of the previously published
Traveller products.
I cannot help it, to me much of the stuff written about this deck plan
really looks like complaining for complaining's sake, and I grow more
and more tired of that attitude. :cry:
captainjack23
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Postby captainjack23 » Fri Apr 18, 2008 7:18 pm

TrippyHippy wrote:
far-trader wrote:Well duh.

That's the whole point of free previews. To drum up interest and buzz, get people bugging to buy it. And that fails miserably if the quality of the preview is poor. Then you get people who might have been interested deciding to give it a pass, or wait for the second (corrected) printing.
The point is, at worst, the appropriate response from fans given free material should be 'oh, well, not for me'. Hardly the response we have been getting from a few individuals. And the emphasis really is on the 'few' here too, I would add. Personally, I am pretty content to spend my money on the product when it comes out. The only thing putting me off, honestly, are elements of the fanbase currently. It's a key factor in most games I invest in.
Count heads: people who bug you vs vs people who don't or who just read/lurk. That should give you a better idea of the ratio inherent in the fanbase. Not just the volume or post count.

Unless the problems are in your local area, I think you'll be very favorably surprised. Unfortunately, for all its good points, the internet allows....problems... to concentrate from worldwide and seem more frequent than they are.
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Postby captainjack23 » Fri Apr 18, 2008 7:31 pm

rust wrote:
far-trader wrote:And that fails miserably if the quality of the preview is poor.
True, but in this case I really do not see how anyone could consider the
quality of the preview to be poor.
All the complaints are about a minor problem with a deck plan, a prob-
lem that has been much worse with most of the previously published
Traveller products.
I cannot help it, to me much of the stuff written about this deck plan
really looks like complaining for complaining's sake, and I grow more
and more tired of that attitude. :cry:
Extremely high standards are easy to insist on when one is not having to produce professionally; it is often the case that the severest critics of a product have little understanding of quality control issues, and the problems and effort inherent in doing it professionally.

Professional is not a synonym for perfect.....it means "done by one who has to make a living at what one is doing".

A hobbyist is always at an advantage, as the hobbyist's output is unconstrained by issues of profit , efficiency or practicality; or meeting deadlines or payroll. By definition, no hobbyist time is billable.

Thus, yes, the critic can often produce a higher standard of a product- at their own pace, their own time and effort, and at their own loss; and also, to their own standard of excellence.

Obviously, if one does not appreciate the professional product, especially in a fundamentally luxury item one need not buy it; however, attempting to prove the effort is unworthy to everyone who will listen is self-indulgently poor behavior. If it is easy to demand high standards with no personal consequences, it is even easier to take the bread out of another workers mouth and suffer nothing for the effort, and less for the consequence.
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Gruffty the Hiver
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Postby Gruffty the Hiver » Fri Apr 18, 2008 8:13 pm

Komrade Commissar Kaptain Jack wrote:If it is easy to demand high standards with no personal consequences, it is even easier to take the bread out of another workers mouth and suffer nothing for the effort, and less for the consequence.
Here, here, Komrade! ;) :twisted:
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Postby Gruffty the Hiver » Fri Apr 18, 2008 8:21 pm

Seriously though, Cpt Jack's points are valid. Had I the artistry and computer graphics/CGI skills necessary, I'd have a crack at "fixing" the deckplan. However, I am, to say the least, incapable of creating even a simple cube in Sketchup. Hence my earlier suggestion.

With regards to fans producing high-quality output: yes, a lack of restrictions (deadlines, time, money) enables fans to focus on the task at hand in a more relaxed manner than a professional can afford (from all aspects).
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Postby captainjack23 » Fri Apr 18, 2008 8:28 pm

Gruffty the Hiver wrote:
Komrade Commissar Kaptain Jack wrote:If it is easy to demand high standards with no personal consequences, it is even easier to take the bread out of another workers mouth and suffer nothing for the effort, and less for the consequence.
Here, here, Komrade! ;) :twisted:
Now, now, I know you're just joshing....Respect for the demands imposed by professional work, or at least for the consequences of undermining it, does not a communist make....remember the solidarity movement in communist Poland ?

Similarly, respect for a clean floor, or the results of mopping it, does not make one a mop.....unless one is dunked in soapy water and vigorously rubbed across the floor.... :wink:
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rust
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Postby rust » Fri Apr 18, 2008 9:09 pm

Gruffty the Hiver wrote: With regards to fans producing high-quality output: yes, a lack of restrictions (deadlines, time, money) enables fans to focus on the task at hand in a more relaxed manner than a professional can afford (from all aspects).
Yes, and this is exactly why I will most probably be quite satisfied with
what I will get from Mongoose. I do not expect it to be perfect, or even
nearly perfect. It only has to be good enough to enable me to adapt the
parts I like for my setting. Making the necessary changes to make the
material "perfect" for my setting is my job, which I can do any way I
like and within any time frame I prefer.

I understand that people who intend to play the game out of the book,
without their own setting and without any interest in changes and adap-
tations, will see more of a problem. However, to me even in this case
the noise seems somewhat out of proportion to the cause.

But perhaps I am just dumb. :(
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Postby Gruffty the Hiver » Fri Apr 18, 2008 11:07 pm

Captain Jack wrote:Similarly, respect for a clean floor, or the results of mopping it, does not make one a mop.....unless one is dunked in soapy water and vigorously rubbed across the floor.... ;)
What you get up to behind your own front door is your own business, I'm sure ;) :lol:
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Postby Jame Rowe » Sat Apr 19, 2008 12:05 am

Gruffty the Hiver wrote:
Captain Jack wrote:Similarly, respect for a clean floor, or the results of mopping it, does not make one a mop.....unless one is dunked in soapy water and vigorously rubbed across the floor.... ;)
What you get up to behind your own front door is your own business, I'm sure ;) :lol:
True, both of you. But good mopping, like good writing and publishing, not only results in clean product but also results in happy owner.


Someone should make an RP for Traveller here as soon as this stuff we're talking about gets published.
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Postby AKAramis » Sat Apr 19, 2008 1:25 am

TrippyHippy wrote:The one thing that gets my goat about all this faux-consumerist postering is that we can categorically guarantee that not one person here, or on the CotI boards, have actually spent a single penny yet on a Mongoose Traveller product.
Actually, I have.
Specifically, 1/4th of a $20 ink cartridge for my printer, and a fourth of a ream of paper, for printing playtest materials to run the game.

So far, I'm out about $7.
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Postby nezeray » Sat Apr 19, 2008 2:07 am

AKAramis wrote:
TrippyHippy wrote:The one thing that gets my goat about all this faux-consumerist postering is that we can categorically guarantee that not one person here, or on the CotI boards, have actually spent a single penny yet on a Mongoose Traveller product.
Actually, I have.
Specifically, 1/4th of a $20 ink cartridge for my printer, and a fourth of a ream of paper, for printing playtest materials to run the game.

So far, I'm out about $7.
Soooo has it been worth it? :)

James / Nezeray
Mongoose Infantry Demo Team - Kentucky

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captainjack23
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Postby captainjack23 » Sat Apr 19, 2008 2:18 am

nezeray wrote:
AKAramis wrote:
TrippyHippy wrote:The one thing that gets my goat about all this faux-consumerist postering is that we can categorically guarantee that not one person here, or on the CotI boards, have actually spent a single penny yet on a Mongoose Traveller product.
Actually, I have.
Specifically, 1/4th of a $20 ink cartridge for my printer, and a fourth of a ream of paper, for printing playtest materials to run the game.

So far, I'm out about $7.
Soooo has it been worth it? :)

James / Nezeray
Heck yes, for the complaining rights, alone........ :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink:
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Postby jonboywalton » Sat Apr 19, 2008 5:48 am

captainjack23 wrote:
nezeray wrote:
captainjack23 wrote: So far, I'm out about $7.
Soooo has it been worth it? :)

James / Nezeray
Heck yes, for the complaining rights, alone........ :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink:
Once again the good Cap'n manages to capture the true spirit of Traveller. Players play, GMs ref; but the real fans whine... :wink:
Success is not final; failure is not fatal - it is the courage to continue that counts.
- Winston Churchill
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Postby AKAramis » Sat Apr 19, 2008 7:06 am

nezeray wrote:
AKAramis wrote:
TrippyHippy wrote:The one thing that gets my goat about all this faux-consumerist postering is that we can categorically guarantee that not one person here, or on the CotI boards, have actually spent a single penny yet on a Mongoose Traveller product.
Actually, I have.
Specifically, 1/4th of a $20 ink cartridge for my printer, and a fourth of a ream of paper, for printing playtest materials to run the game.

So far, I'm out about $7.
Soooo has it been worth it? :)

James / Nezeray
I liked the playtest rules well enough, despite the break with Timing and effect. I found several ways to "solve" it, but only one worth a damn... flip timing and effect to low is good. (Which also makes initiative easier: you act when your die is removed...)
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TrippyHippy
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Postby TrippyHippy » Sat Apr 19, 2008 2:43 pm

AKAramis wrote:
TrippyHippy wrote:The one thing that gets my goat about all this faux-consumerist postering is that we can categorically guarantee that not one person here, or on the CotI boards, have actually spent a single penny yet on a Mongoose Traveller product.
Actually, I have.
Specifically, 1/4th of a $20 ink cartridge for my printer, and a fourth of a ream of paper, for printing playtest materials to run the game.

So far, I'm out about $7.

That's not spending on the product. Mongoose haven't recieved any money from you, and how you choose to use free material is up to you. There was no compulsion to print anything.
Outtasight!
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Postby AKAramis » Sat Apr 19, 2008 3:23 pm

TrippyHippy wrote:
AKAramis wrote:
TrippyHippy wrote:The one thing that gets my goat about all this faux-consumerist postering is that we can categorically guarantee that not one person here, or on the CotI boards, have actually spent a single penny yet on a Mongoose Traveller product.
Actually, I have.
Specifically, 1/4th of a $20 ink cartridge for my printer, and a fourth of a ream of paper, for printing playtest materials to run the game.

So far, I'm out about $7.

That's not spending on the product. Mongoose haven't recieved any money from you, and how you choose to use free material is up to you. There was no compulsion to print anything.
It was money spent on putting the product into usable state.

I don't care who the money is paid to, it was money spent on having a playable game. (I can itemize those costs as part of the hobby for my tax purposes...)
-AKAramis
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