Will you buy Mongoose Traveller when released?

Discuss the Traveller RPG and its many settings

Will you buy Mongoose Traveller when released?

Yes. It looks great. I can't wait.
75
69%
No. I am no longer interested in buying the game.
34
31%
 
Total votes: 109
Supplement Four
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Postby Supplement Four » Sun Feb 10, 2008 2:33 am

tbeard1999 wrote: I'm no great fan of the 2d6 bell curve...
Just to be "correct", one doesn't get a bell curve from 2D. It takes 3D or more for a bell curve. The 2D "curve" is more of a pyramid, coming to a point in the center.

Distribution, though, is clustered around the center of the curve, as it is with a bell curve.
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Postby hdrider67 » Sun Feb 10, 2008 2:40 am

tbeard1999
I'm no great fan of the 2d6 bell curve, but MGT combat is not predictable because of the 2d6 curve. It's predictable because the designers did not understand the statistical qualities of the T/E system.
I agree with that but there are fewer results possible. I'm also taking into account the major skewing that can take place as a result of stats or skills. a +2 modifier from high dex makes a heck of a lot more difference with a 2d6 mechanic.
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Postby AKAramis » Sun Feb 10, 2008 2:55 am

Supplement Four wrote:
tbeard1999 wrote: I'm no great fan of the 2d6 bell curve...
Just to be "correct", one doesn't get a bell curve from 2D. It takes 3D or more for a bell curve. The 2D "curve" is more of a pyramid, coming to a point in the center.

Distribution, though, is clustered around the center of the curve, as it is with a bell curve.
My stats professors referred to it as a "Bilinear distribution"... now, two dissimilar dice produce a trilinear distribution.

In any case, it's less srongly centered than a standard distribution, while 3d approximates standard, and 4d is pretty spot on.
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Postby Supplement Four » Sun Feb 10, 2008 3:42 am

hdrider67 wrote:I'm also taking into account the major skewing that can take place as a result of stats or skills. a +2 modifier from high dex makes a heck of a lot more difference with a 2d6 mechanic.
Which is what I've been saying about MGT and its stat bloat. CT doesn't have this because it so rarely references stats on throws. When CT does reference sat, typically, it's something like, "+1 DM if Stat 9+" or some such. No stat bloat. And, in CT, stats can be massively influential on the task roll when it is necessary and recommended to do so.

MGT has huge stat bloat, where a character's stat hugely influences the outcomes of throws.

In many cases, when using MGT, the biggest modifier a character gets is from his stat. Even when the modifier is just a +1 DM, that's still a huge modifier when speaking of a 2D6 system.

My advice is to either (1) revamp the MGT task system so that stats don't have such an impact on tasks, or (2) revamp the MGT task system so that stats influence the outcome of a task in a different way.

Sadly, I don't think any more tweaking to the most important mechanic in the game will be done.



Good idea that will be ignored: If it were my system, I'd ditch the T/E mechanic and find some way to use a character's stat to influence Timing and Effect.

That way, the character's stat will effect the outcome of the roll without stat bloat and overpowering the effect of the character's skill.

Plus, the controversial T/E Mechanic would go away, it's problems with it, but the function the T/E Mechanic serves will still be there.

When I talk about professional game designers turning out work that is superior and not just "good enough", this is the type of thing I'm talking about. Using a character's stat this way solves a lot of problems.

How to do it? Well, I'm not going to figure it out because I know it will be ignored. But, yeah, I bet if someone cared, this idea of mine could be turned into something useful for MGT.

Heck, if they fixed things like that, I might just reverse my opinion on the game, and then shell out the buckaroos to buy the thing when it comes out.

I won't hold my breath, though.



EDIT: BTW, one thought on how to do this.... You'd have to change the T/E numbers a bit, but they'd still mean the same thing. Once the roll is made, the player could choose between the sum of the natural 2D roll (no modifiers) and his stat as either the timing or effect.

So, if a character has a Stat-7 governing a task for which he rolls a total of 5 on 2D (do not count modifiers, only the dice), then he can pick either the 7 or the 5 as his timing or his effect.

What would need to be done is to re-scale the T/E Mechanic. Different values but some idea and implementation. Maybe base it on 15 instead of 6.
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Postby Klaus Kipling » Sun Feb 10, 2008 4:55 am

tbeard1999 wrote:
Klaus Kipling wrote:
Supplement Four wrote: Then, I saw TBeard1999's analysis of the T/E mechanic. It's clearly broken, and clearly, Mongoose is going to release the game with the broken mechanic.
Well, since TBeard's statistical objections do not apply once Effect is uncapped, as apparently it will in the release, clearly the mechanic is no longer broken after all.
Sorry Klaus, but this is incorrect. The statistical flaws in the systewm are independent of capping. But then, I think you already knew that.
Well my understanding of uncapped is the die plus or minus the modifier to the roll, in which case it would look much like the analysis I did, to which you said the probabilities no longer offended you. Or am I mistaken?
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Postby tbeard1999 » Sun Feb 10, 2008 5:12 am

Klaus Kipling wrote: Well my understanding of uncapped is the die plus or minus the modifier to the roll, in which case it would look much like the analysis I did, to which you said the probabilities no longer offended you. Or am I mistaken?
Sorry for the pissiness in my reply; I was in a hurry and did not review the post for tone. I didn't mean to imply that you were being dishonest; I think I just forgot to finish a sentence.

Anyhow, I think you're mistaken. All "uncapping" means to me is that the maximum effect die can now exceed 6. This is how the system looked in v1.0 of the playtest and they appear to be going back to it.

Your mechanic, IIRC, did much more than uncap the rolls. You also moved the excellent result numbers above 6 as well. I have not heard that this change would be made in the MGT system. And I did state that I thought it was a better mechanic than the one in MGT (I still do).

But regardless of all that, merely uncapping the effect rolls will not alter the fact that a 5+ is about nine times as likely as a 2- on a successful roll (no modifiers).
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Postby tbeard1999 » Sun Feb 10, 2008 5:20 am

hdrider67 wrote:tbeard1999

I agree with that but there are fewer results possible. I'm also taking into account the major skewing that can take place as a result of stats or skills. a +2 modifier from high dex makes a heck of a lot more difference with a 2d6 mechanic.
Oh, you're preaching to the choir. http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discus ... bell+curve
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Postby wlewisiii » Sun Feb 10, 2008 6:56 am

I'll buy it, though I'll want to wait for the second printing due to the level of typos a Mongoose product first printing will have. Someone else can do their proof-reading; I did that for MT & TNE & won't do it again... :evil:

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Postby captainjack23 » Sun Feb 10, 2008 8:28 am

tbeard1999 wrote:
hdrider67 wrote:tbeard1999

I agree with that but there are fewer results possible. I'm also taking into account the major skewing that can take place as a result of stats or skills. a +2 modifier from high dex makes a heck of a lot more difference with a 2d6 mechanic.
Oh, you're preaching to the choir. http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discus ... bell+curve
More like the pope, than the choir. Or perhaps the Anti-pope, all considered... :wink:

hey. No smiley/emoticon with a papal crown. The heck ?

How bout : +CI:)
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Postby Stainless » Sun Feb 10, 2008 10:54 am

Dice mechanic (including the change to unbounded limits) is still broken. Thus the game is broken for me.

I MIGHT buy it, simply to convert it to the new Basic Roleplaying (BRP) rules. At least they are elegant, well thought out and the playtesting (through Edition 0 sales) has actually included reader comments. But then again, I have all this other Traveller material to use for conversion, so MGT isn't really needed.

P.S. I will definitely buy MJD's Spinward Marches book however. He's an excellent writer as demonstrated by all the Avenger Publications material.
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Postby Klaus Kipling » Sun Feb 10, 2008 1:51 pm

tbeard1999 wrote: Sorry for the pissiness in my reply; I was in a hurry and did not review the post for tone. I didn't mean to imply that you were being dishonest; I think I just forgot to finish a sentence.
No probs, sir. Tone is quite difficult to get across in raw text. :)
tbeard1999 wrote: But regardless of all that, merely uncapping the effect rolls will not alter the fact that a 5+ is about nine times as likely as a 2- on a successful roll (no modifiers).
I would have assumed that uncapping the dice would include changing the success scale, as otherwise it would make absolutely no difference to anything but damage. I know Mongoose haven't explicitly stated that but given the brevity of the reply I'd thought it was implicit. Maybe I'm wrong.
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Postby dmccoy1693 » Mon Feb 11, 2008 4:26 pm

I've got both the base book and the Spinward Marches on preorder.
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Postby Delta » Fri Feb 15, 2008 7:01 pm

I've pre-ordered the core rulebook and the Spinward Marches book.

I'll wait to see how practical and playable the core MGT rules prove to be before considering further purchases though.
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Postby AKAramis » Fri Feb 15, 2008 9:36 pm

Klaus Kipling wrote:
tbeard1999 wrote: But regardless of all that, merely uncapping the effect rolls will not alter the fact that a 5+ is about nine times as likely as a 2- on a successful roll (no modifiers).
I would have assumed that uncapping the dice would include changing the success scale, as otherwise it would make absolutely no difference to anything but damage. I know Mongoose haven't explicitly stated that but given the brevity of the reply I'd thought it was implicit. Maybe I'm wrong.
THe problem is that to get 8+ ("Average" task),
you have the following choices:
2,6; 3,5; 4,4; 5,3; 6,2; 3,6; 4,5; 5,4; 6,3; 4,6; 5,5; 6,5; 5,6; 6,5; 6,6

giving this distribution on available result dice:
2, 2
3, 3, 3, 3
4, 4, 4, 4, 4
5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5
6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6
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Postby Valarian » Fri Feb 15, 2008 11:31 pm

I've voted no. After some careful reading, I've made the decision that the new rules are not for me. It's too close to Classic and Megatraveller for my tastes. My thanks to Mongoose for posting the play test documents openly and giving me the chance to look at the system.
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Postby TrippyHippy » Sat Feb 16, 2008 1:56 am

AKAramis wrote:THe problem is that to get 8+ ("Average" task),
you have the following choices:
2,6; 3,5; 4,4; 5,3; 6,2; 3,6; 4,5; 5,4; 6,3; 4,6; 5,5; 6,5; 5,6; 6,5; 6,6

giving this distribution on available result dice:
2, 2
3, 3, 3, 3
4, 4, 4, 4, 4
5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5
6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6
....which is then affected by:

a) The various bonuses/penalties that are added/subtracted from the total.
b) The player choice of which dice for effect or time, respectively.

If you have an open system then it is reasonable to assume that skill levels, in particular, are going to have a big effect on the outcome of the effect (and rightly so).

If that is the case, then we could have a system that has high effect values effectively being anything above 6 (7+), low effect values being below 1 (0-), and the range between 1-6 being merely average to various degrees. Moreover, the weight towards higher numbers only really becomes an issue in how you interpret them, in the same way that low-weighted dice in White Wolf's dicepool system is inconsequential because they are interpreted in a certain way.

In the case of Traveller, the choice of which dice to use for time/effect essentially flip-flops the odds of getting high (or low) on a each respective dice, as would appear to benefit the player rolling for any particular task.

In short, the raw data presented here is pretty simplistic, and outmoded as a source of complaint.
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Postby AKAramis » Sat Feb 16, 2008 6:42 am

TrippyHippy wrote:
In short, the raw data presented here is pretty simplistic, and outmoded as a source of complaint.
Let's present the data for the common rolls:

4+
1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1
2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2
3,3,3,3,3,3,3,3,3,3,3,3
4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4
5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5
6,6,6,6,6,6,6,6,6,6,6,6,6,6

6+:
1,1,1,1
2,2,2,2,2,2
3,3,3,3,3,3,3,3
4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4
5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5
6,6,6,6,6,6,6,6,6,6,6,6,6,6

8+
2, 2
3, 3, 3, 3
4, 4, 4, 4, 4
5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5
6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6

10+:
4,4
5,5,
6,6

12+:
66

And then the revision showing the mods applied, since the mod is applied to both the effect and the time die.
4+ (DM+4)
5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5
6,6,6,6,6,6,6,6,6,6
7,7,7,7,7,7,7,7,7,7,7,7
8,8,8,8,8,8,8,8,8,8,8
9,9,9,9,9,9,9,9,9,9,9,9,9
A,A,A,A,A,A,A,A,A,A,A,A,A

6+:
3,3,3,3
4,4,4,4,4,4
5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5
6,6,6,6,6,6,6,6,6
7,7,7,7,7,7,7,7,7,7,7,7,7
8,8,8,8,8,8,8,8,8,8,8,8,8,8

8+
2, 2
3, 3, 3, 3
4, 4, 4, 4, 4
5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5
6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6

10+: (DM-2)
2,2
3,3
4,4

12+: (DM-4)
22
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Postby EDG » Sat Feb 16, 2008 6:44 am

Aren't there other threads for this sort of system analysis stuff?
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Postby AKAramis » Sat Feb 16, 2008 6:49 am

EDG wrote:Aren't there other threads for this sort of system analysis stuff?
Perhaps; I usually don't look at thread titles (since they don't show up) when posting; I respond purely to the posts in thread.

Someone complained, someone else denied the basic resumption, I provided the data. I'd like to point out the one MAJOR flaw: you can't (EVER) get an SL of 1, unless there are mods to success that don't translate to the Effect/Timing die (as occurred in draft 1, where stat mods applied to success, but not to effect/timing...)

It isn't going to prevent me from buying, nor from playing, and as it sits now (3.3 unreleased but some data known), uncapping does make it possible to kill a man outright with a Rifle (10x3=30... enough to kill "Joe Normal"....).
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Postby TrippyHippy » Sat Feb 16, 2008 11:41 am

There has been a good statistical analysis of the open roll, with modifiers included, on Klaus Kipling's Time/Effect Redux thread, which is a page down or so. Try there.

Here's the link:

http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/phpBB ... hp?t=33185

The only factor that is not accounted for in this table, is the one that players will choose time/effect dice to their best advantage. However, the stats presented in this pool are the best ones we have seen, and definitely outmode the ones presented above.
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