Assault Rifle Damage Too High?

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tbeard1999
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Assault Rifle Damage Too High?

Postby tbeard1999 » Fri Jan 25, 2008 6:30 pm

Why does a TL7 assault rifle do 33% more damage (2X+4 vs 2X) than a TL5 rifle? The assault rifle fires a lighter round (typically 5.56 x 45mm or 7.62 x 39mm) than the rifle (typically 7.62 x 63mm [.30-06] or 7.62 x 54mm). The rifle should have significantly higher penetration and do more damage (or at least equivalent damage) than than the assault rifle. Since MGT equates damage and penetration, the rifle should do more damage.

(This question was not answered when asked in another thread, so I'm asking it in its own thread).

Also, there's no reason for the autorifle to do more damage than the rifle. The autorifle is a rifle capable of firing on full automatic. The rounds and barrel length are the same, so damage/penetration should be comparable.
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Postby Klaus Kipling » Fri Jan 25, 2008 9:36 pm

Agree here too.

The assault rifle should be at the lower end of the rifle damage.
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Postby klingsor » Tue Jan 29, 2008 11:03 am

By its very definition an assault rifle fires a low powered cartridge. Think of it as a particularly aggressive carbine – though of course many so called carbines were just shortened service rifles with a full power cartridge.
If it fires a full power rifle cartridge it is an automatic rifle instead.

Rifle
Full power cartridge, long barrel. For bolt action the Mauser 98, M1903 or Lee-Enflied. With self-loading rifles the M14 Garand.

Carbine
Traditionally and in Traveller a small rifle firing a low powered cartridge. Think Ruger Mini-14 or the M1 Carbine. Sometimes a short rifle with a full power cartridge such as the various cavalry carbines that were basically cut down service rifles.

Assault Rifle
Automatic rifle firing a low powered cartridge. StG 44, M16, L85, AK47 and so.

Automatic Rifle
Automatic rifle firing a full power rifle cartridge. G3. M14, FN FAL.
tbeard1999
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Postby tbeard1999 » Tue Jan 29, 2008 11:44 am

klingsor wrote:By its very definition an assault rifle fires a low powered cartridge.
So, you agree then that the assault rifle should do less damage in MGT than the rifle or autorifle?
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Postby klingsor » Tue Jan 29, 2008 12:26 pm

Entirely. Sorry, I thought that was what I had said - albeit in a long winded way.
I do not have the numbers here with me but thee is a considerable difference both bullet mass and energy between a full power, old style rifle cartridge and the cartridge for an assault rifle.

I will use figures from Wikipedia for an example. I will not bother with any other calculations as all of the formulae I have for terminal effectiveness are more or less suspect. However twice the ME must say something.


Using figures from Wikipedia:
-----------------5.56 × 45mm NATO SS109------7.62 × 51mm
Bullet Mass (g)--------4-----------------------------------9.5
MV (m/s)-----------940---------------------------------840
ME (J)-------------1767.2------------------------------3351.6

Sorry about the dashes but it seems to mangle the table even if use spaces instead of tabs.
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SableWyvern
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Postby SableWyvern » Tue Jan 29, 2008 12:40 pm

klingsor wrote:Sorry about the dashes but it seems to mangle the table even if use spaces instead of tabs.
{code}Tabulated Data With Spaces{/code} (but use square brackets)

Code: Select all

1   2   3   4   5
A   B   C   D   E
F   G   H   I   J
8)


Also, I agree with everyone else in this thread. :D
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Postby klingsor » Tue Jan 29, 2008 1:25 pm

But that is like proper HTML!
Doooh (or what ever that Homer Simpson sound is).
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Postby -Daniel- » Tue Jan 29, 2008 5:00 pm

I have to voice my agreement here as well. I do nto expect my games to be 100% realistic, they are games after all. But I do expect a good deal of logical outcomes so that I can shift into the game and enjoy the role playing rather then dealing with unrealistic outcomes.

tbeard has outlined the reasons very well I think.

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pasuuli
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Postby pasuuli » Tue Jan 29, 2008 11:27 pm

So, the TL7 Assault Rifle might only do 2X damage, and the TL5 Rifle do 2X+1?
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Postby Sturn » Thu Jan 31, 2008 4:55 am

I like more details and options with my weapons (being a gun nut who has used many weapons as part of my last two professions). I have made some notes on a longer weapons list with adjustments to the assault/rifle damage problem:

Light Revolver. X1+2 Example: .38.
Medium Revolver. X1+3. As the standard MGT Revolver. Example: .357?
Heavy Revolver. X1+4. Recoil 2. Example: .44mag.

Light Autopistol. X1+1. 8 rounds. Recoil 0. Example: .25 auto.
Medium Autopistol. X1+2. As the standard MGT Pistol. Example: 9mm.
Heavy Autopistol. X1+3. 8 rounds. Recoil 1. 1.5 kg. Example: .45


(note changes to damage of Rifles)
Bolt/Lever Rifle. X2+4. Recoil 3. Example: .308 or 7.62 L.
Semi Rifle. X2+4. As the standard MGT Rifle. Example: 7.62 L, M14.
Auto Rifle. X2+4. As MGT but 6kg. Example: 7.62 L w/full auto, BAR, G3.
Assault Rifle. X2+2. As MGT. Example:7.62S, 5.45, 5.56, AK, M16,M4,G36.
Carbine. X2+1. 3kg. Recoil 2. Example: .30, M1 carbine.

Some may think Auto and Semi Rifle are the same. But, I think there needs to be a difference between a semi-automatic high caliber rifle versus the same weapon with full auto. Also, the Carbine could be set at X2+2 to make it a semi-auto only version of the Assault Rifle. See my "autofire 2" notes below.

SMG. X1+2, 2-3 kg?, Reload 1 as pistol?, Recoil 1. Auto 4. Example: 9mm Uzi, MP5.
Possibly Light SMG and Heavy SMG versions available using the damage/ammo of the autopistols above.

Machinegun notes: These could run from light versions (LMG) using the assault rifle ammo (M249 SAW), medium ones (MMG) using full rifle ammo (PK series, M60, M240), to heavy mounted versions (HMG) with X2+8? X3+6? Recoil 6? (M2 .50 cal, DSHK). All Auto 4? Bipods give -1 recoil, but must be prone or have a support, tripods remove all but 1 recoil?

Note: I would consider .22 S pistols to have X1 damage, while .22 L rifles would possibly have X2-1 damage and Recoil 1. Don't think anyone would use these though.

Note: I'm considering giving some weapons "Autofire 2": Light Autopistol, Medium Autopistol, Semi Rifle, and Carbine.
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Postby Klaus Kipling » Thu Jan 31, 2008 8:57 pm

Yeah, I think an auto-2 is in order. Can't get full auotfire (not enough dice), but you still a burst.
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Postby barasawa » Tue Feb 05, 2008 5:17 am

That's odd, my post completely dissapeared. I wonder why...

Oh well, I'll try for a short version of what I said earlier:

Dunno why they did it, but here's two ideas to bat around on the gun issue:

First - Since an Assault Rifle is considered a Military weapon, most people would think it actually does more damage. This is a game in a fictional universe after all.

Second - As the original poster said, the Assault Rifle is TWO tech levels higher. So maybe it's just got better sealing and stronger propellants. Since Kinetic Energy equals Mass times Velocity, you could make a huge crater with a measley BB if you could just fling it fast enough. :-)

Hmm, just thought. Maybe the game designers did that intentionally so that military would have stronger weapons than civilians or low tech throwbacks.

Another idea on variant tech. An energy weapon (like the various laser guns) that don't have power cells/batteries. Instead they use disposable miniature capaciter/generators for instant juice. Would work kinda like regular cartridges for slugthrowers, but instead of exploding, it would produce a short but powerful burst of energy to power the gun. (In the real world, certain munitions are powered by a 'thermal battery' that is actually a short duration chemically powered one use generator.)

Thanks for listening to my incessant babbling :D
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SableWyvern
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Postby SableWyvern » Tue Feb 05, 2008 5:23 am

barasawa wrote:That's odd, my post completely dissapeared. I wonder why...
I think that there is another thread on the same topic.

Edit: Yup. Scroll down the page a bit to "Damage Issues".
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Postby SableWyvern » Tue Feb 05, 2008 5:37 am

barasawa wrote:First - Since an Assault Rifle is considered a Military weapon, most people would think it actually does more damage. This is a game in a fictional universe after all.
Given that the autorifle represents the FN-FAL and similar battle rifles, it definitely counts as a military weapon as well.
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Sturn
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Postby Sturn » Tue Feb 05, 2008 10:58 am

barasawa wrote:As the original poster said, the Assault Rifle is TWO tech levels higher. So maybe it's just got better sealing and stronger propellants.
The archaic M1 Garand "Rifle" still does quite a bit more tissue damage then the most modern 5.56mm "Assault Rifles".

I'm going from memory, but I believe older versions of Traveller gave the Rifle higher damage when compared to the Assault Rifle? I would have to go dig through some book shelves to confirm this. I'm one to think that the damage difference is just a mistake that will be corrected.
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Postby tbeard1999 » Tue Feb 05, 2008 12:34 pm

barasawa wrote:That's odd, my post completely dissapeared. I wonder why...

Oh well, I'll try for a short version of what I said earlier:

First - Since an Assault Rifle is considered a Military weapon, most people would think it actually does more damage. This is a game in a fictional universe after all.
Given that the term "assault rifle" has a well-understood meaning and that that meaning is the same in the Real World and in previous editions of Traveller, I don't find this a very convincing point. I'd expect the designer to at least familiarize himself with basic points of reference like this.
Second - As the original poster said, the Assault Rifle is TWO tech levels higher. So maybe it's just got better sealing and stronger propellants. Since Kinetic Energy equals Mass times Velocity, you could make a huge crater with a measley BB if you could just fling it fast enough. :-)
Actually, .5 x Mass x Velocity Squared. The assault rifle intentionally uses a less powerful cartridge than previous combat rifles, and usually a shorter barrel, which militate for significantly lower penetration.

The US experience is instructive. The standard US bolt action rifle and semi-automatic rifles used the powerful 30-06 cartridge (7.62 x 63mm). In the 1950s, the M-14 autorifle and similar models like the FN-FAL used the less powerful (but still very potent) 7.62 x 51mm round. In the 1960s, the AR-15/M-16 led the West's adoption of the lightweight 5.56 x 45mm round. The trend, therefore, has been towards lighter rounds, which allowed for significantly more ammo to be carried, and which was an effective round against unarmored targets at normal combat ranges.

But in Iraq, this round's lack of penetration has caused the US military to consider re-adapting the NATO 7.62mm x 51mm cartridge because it has better penetration through walls and body armor. (The military ultimately chose the 6.8mm x 43mm round, which is about midway in performance between the 5.56 x 45mm cartridge and the NATO 7.62mm).

And there really hasn't been much improvement in bullet performance over the last century, for a variety of reasons. The next improvement in performance should come in muzzle energy (when ETC cartridges are perfected at TL 9 or so) or in rate of fire/ammunition capacity (when caseless cartridges become popular).
Hmm, just thought. Maybe the game designers did that intentionally so that military would have stronger weapons than civilians or low tech throwbacks.
Or maybe the designers didn't do their homework. Or maybe they made a simply typo.

At the end of the day, no one who knows anything about modern TL6-8 firearms would seriously assert that an assault rifle has better penetration than TL5 combat rifles.
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Postby pasuuli » Tue Feb 05, 2008 9:12 pm

Sturn wrote: Light Revolver. X1+2 Example: .38.
Medium Revolver. X1+3. As the standard MGT Revolver. Example: .357?
Heavy Revolver. X1+4. Recoil 2. Example: .44mag.

Light Autopistol. X1+1. 8 rounds. Recoil 0. Example: .25 auto.
Medium Autopistol. X1+2. As the standard MGT Pistol. Example: 9mm.
Heavy Autopistol. X1+3. 8 rounds. Recoil 1. 1.5 kg. Example: .45
I like the rules you're using.

Auto = Dmg-1.
Light = Dmg-1, Recoil-1.
Heavy = Dmg+1, Recoil+1.

These could apply to rifles too!

Light rifle: x2+3, recoil 2.
Heavy rifle: x2+5, recoil 4.
Auto-rifle: x2+3, recoil 3.
Light autorifle: x2+2, recoil 2.
Heavy autorifle: x2+4, recoil 4.

Assault Rifle. x2+2.
Light assault rifle. x2+1, recoil 1.
Heavy assault rifle. x2+3, recoil 3.

Carbine. x2+1, recoil 2.
Light carbine. x2, recoil 1.
Heavy carbine. x2+2, recoil 3.

SMG. x1+2, recoil 1.
Light SMG. x1+1, recoil 0.
Heavy SMG. x1+3, recoil 2.
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Postby pasuuli » Tue Feb 05, 2008 9:16 pm

This is fun.

Light gauss pistol. x1+3.
Heavy gauss pistol. x1+5, recoil 1.

Light shotgun. x3-1, recoil 3.
Heavy shotgun. x3+1, recoil 5.

Light ACR. x2+7, recoil 1. (doesn't seem to work so well in this case)
Heavy ACR. x2+9, recoil 3.

Light gauss rifle. x2+9, recoil 0. (doesn't seem to work so well in this case)
Heavy gauss rifle. x2+11, recoil 2.


Not as meaningful when the weapon has a high damage (+6, +8, +10).
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Sturn
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Postby Sturn » Wed Feb 06, 2008 12:36 am

Some simulationists might be interested in this, but most won't like the added detail. This is my working list of weapon damages by typical ammo types. I have not checked the calibres (all in metric) versus my Traveller books yet (for example, some sources have Gauss ammo all at 4mm, some have varying mm's of Gauss ammo). I haven't put in recoil amounts since this may vary by size of the weapon:

High Velocity (rifles)

X2 = 4mmH. 2-12. small hunting round like .22.
X2+1 = 5mmH. 3-13
X2+2 = 6mmH. 4-14. typical assault rifle.
X2+3 = 7mmH. 5-15. carbines?
X2+4 = 8mmH. 6-16. typical large-caliber rifle.
X2+6 = 9mmH. 8-18.
X2+8 = 10mmH. 10-20. typical ACR round*.
X2+10 = 11mmH. 12-22. large round used in a sniper rifle.
X2+12 = 12mmH. 14-24.
X2+13 = 13mmH. 15-25. typical heavy machinegun round.

*I might add a different table for ACR ammo, since it should probably be considered a completely different ammo type (higher TL), possibly binary propellant, caseless, etc.

Low Velocity(pistols, SMGs)

X1 = 5mmL. 1-6. Snub pistol.
X1+1 = 7mmL. 2-7.
X1+2 = 9mmL. 3-8. typical SMG/Pistol round.
X1+3 = 11mmL. 4-9.

Magnum (revolvers, some rare carbines may use it)

X1+1 = 5mmM. 2-7. Not possible?
X1+2 = 7mmM. 3-8.
X1+3 = 9mmM. 4-9.
X1+4 = 11mmM. 5-10.
X1+5 = 13mmM. 6-11. not possible?

Gauss

X1 = 2mmG. 1-6. rare, used in a high ammo cap. gauss compact pistol.
X1+4 = 4mmG. 5-10. typical gauss pistol round.
X2+6 = 6mmG. 8-18. little used gauss round.
X2+10 = 8mmG. 12-22. typical gauss rifle round.
X2+12 = 10mmG. 14-24. rarely used in a gauss sniper rifle.

Gyro (accelerator weapons, small missiles)

X2 = subGyro. 2-12. Rare, used in a compact version with only 3 ammo capacity.
X2+6 = Gyro. 8-18. Used in the accelerator rifle and the typical but rare accelerator pistol?

Antigue (small balls of metal, sometimes shaped)

Same ammo used in all weapons, difference in range and damage is based upon barrel length and typical amount of powder put in the weapon (more for rifles). Approx. 11mm.

X1+3 = 4-9. typical pistol damage.
X2-1 = 1-11. typical rifle damage (note the change).
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Postby tbeard1999 » Wed Feb 06, 2008 5:23 pm

Sturn wrote:Some simulationists might be interested in this, but most won't like the added detail. This is my working list of weapon damages by typical ammo types. I have not checked the calibres (all in metric) versus my Traveller books yet (for example, some sources have Gauss ammo all at 4mm, some have varying mm's of Gauss ammo). I haven't put in recoil amounts since this may vary by size of the weapon:

High Velocity (rifles)

X2 = 4mmH. 2-12. small hunting round like .22.
X2+1 = 5mmH. 3-13
Due to the dubious statistical spread in the timing/effect mechanic, most effect rolls are gonna be 5's or 6's. And if Mongoose goes through with their ill-considered threat of uncapping the effect rolls, the averages will skew much higher. It's pretty easy to get a +2 damage, so the typical damage die will be a 7 or 8. This means that a x2 damage value will average about 15 points of damage. I'd take this into account when setting the damage of various rounds.

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