Page 2 of 2

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 2:04 pm
by atpollard
SableWyvern wrote:I don't believe that 1 per 50dt as a rule of thumb is a travesty.

I disagree with the assertion implicit in this comment:
This has the potential to be something along the line of MegaTraveller sensors in Ship Design, where one wastes a lot of time calculating volume, weight, power requirements and costs that all get dropped in the process of rounding off the final figures instead of just using an abstract x Cr per dTon of ship like Classic Traveller.
that adding a more detailed breakdown of crew structure is wasted space and effort. Contrary to that, it would actually serve a very real and useful purpose.
That does deserve some clarification.
To those advocating a more detailed system of determining the crew, I would caution not to go too far.

As an example of what I would view as a too detailed system I would point to MegaTraveller’s Bridge Crew rules in which you add the cost of multiple ‘classes’ of components and use the cost to calculate the required Control Points. Then you use the Control points to calculate how many control panels you need. Then you modify the control panels with add-ons (like HUD) and then further modify the control panels based on the ships TL and Computer. Now you know how many stations (crewmen) you need. Except for the Additional Listed Positions (like Commander), unless yet another formula tells you that that position is not needed.

Mongoose would never create such a complex rules system. My reference to the needless complexity of MT sensors (that added little real benefit in the end) was meant as a desire to avoid making the same mistake in MoT Crews. If a little extra detail is good, do not assume that a ton of extra detail will be better.

I stated my concerns poorly the first time, I hope that this time my intent is clearer.

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 4:03 pm
by SableWyvern
Ah, ok. That's a much more reasonable position than it appeared on first glance.

All I want is a system that gives me a good idea of what types of crew are required, and which is relatively easy to work with. The system in the OP seems to do that more than adequately.

Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 3:01 am
by AKAramis
atpollard wrote: As an example of what I would view as a too detailed system I would point to MegaTraveller’s Bridge Crew rules in which you add the cost of multiple ‘classes’ of components and use the cost to calculate the required Control Points. Then you use the Control points to calculate how many control panels you need. Then you modify the control panels with add-ons (like HUD) and then further modify the control panels based on the ships TL and Computer. Now you know how many stations (crewmen) you need. Except for the Additional Listed Positions (like Commander), unless yet another formula tells you that that position is not needed.
ANd you've got it wrong.
CP are determined by Price and TL. CP and computer are used to determine crew requirements. Panels are calculated separately.

Please, AT, if you're going to complain, at least bother to look up the rules you're casting aspersions on.
MT Crew Formulae, MT Ref's Manual page 82 wrote:7 Starship and Spacecraft Crews
Starships and spacecraft (larger than
vehicles and small craft) require an extensive
crew to handle the responsibilities of
the ship’s operations. Use the following
formulae to compute the requirements.

Bridge Crew (Cb):
Cb = (T/C)/750 (round fractions up).
The minimum bridge crew is 2. If Cb
computed above exceeds 10, recompute
Cb instead as:
Cb = 10 + (Cb/lO) (round fractions up).

Engineering Crew (Ce):
Ce = ((P + L))/C)/400 (round fractions up).
L=Engineering Craft CP.
C = Computer CP Multiple.
P = Power Supply CP.
C = Computer CP Multiple.

Maintenance Crew (Cm):
Cm = ((H + A)/C/400 (drop fractions)
H = Hull displacement divided by 100.
C= Computer CP Multiple.
Cg = (W + F)/C/lO (drop fractions)

Gunners (Cg):
W = Weapons CP.
F= Screens CP.
C = Computer CP Multiple.

Flight Crew (Cf):
Cf=Q+R.
Q = Total Subordinate Craft Crew.
R = Number of Subordinate Craft.

Ship’s Troops (Ct):
Ct = (H/1000) x M) (drop fractions)
H = Hull Displacement.
M = Troop Multiple (referee’s or
designer’s selection from 1 to 30).
every 6 ship’s troops carried.
Command (Cc):
Cc = Z/6 (drop fractions)
include Stewards or Medical Crew).

Stewards (0s):
(drop fractions)
Reduce maintenance crew (Cm) by 1 for
Z=Total crew to this point (does not
Cs = ((Cc + Ch)l6) + (((2-Cc) + Cj))/50)
Ch = High Passage Passengers.
Cc = Command Crew.
Cj = Middle Passengers.
Z-Cc = Non-Command Crew.
At least one steward is required if there
are any High Passengers.

Frozen Watch (0:
Z = Total Crew Count (not including
Medical Crew).
H = Hull Displacement Tonnage divided
by 1000 (if less than 1, treat as 1).
If Cf low (not emergency low) berths are
present, the ship can carry a frozen watch.

Medlcal Crew (Cd):
to this point.
Cf = Z/H
Cd = (Z/l20) + (C1/20) (drop fractions)
Z=Current crew and passenger count
CI = Low Passengers.
It's ugly, but not nearly as bad as AT purports. (The controls requirement, that was ungainly... and unrelated to crewing... you divided the CP total needed by the computer CP multiple, hten installed enough panels and add-ons to meet that total. )

Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 8:34 pm
by Zowy
I think the crew requirements need to be more clear allso. With MoT haveing Robot, Drone, and Expert skill software in the basic rules. Some players will want to push crewing requirements down by useing Robots and non-certified, expert skill program useing crew to cover the gaps.

I allways looked at crewing levels as -legal- and -interstellar shiping- requirments, as much as the point at which you don't want to add more automation.

I would never let my players get away with just haveing an AutoDoc with Medic/1-2, stuck in a Lowberth / sickbay room. Most worlds require a real live trained Medic, to sign off on the health of passengers and crew. Not a robot or someone useing an expert skill program. The same with Lowberth use. Even if you upgrade them to TL 12+ CryoMed berths with built in AutoDocs, you still need a real live Medic to oversee them to preserve your legal protections.

If you have High / Mid pasengers you need at least one real live Steward allso, a Servitor Robot will not do. It will not be culturally acceptable to many of the passengers and even some of the crew. "They are replaceing us with Robots and takeing away our jobs!!"

The same thing goes for the Pilots / Engineers / ect. ....... there needs to be a real live person to sign the paperwork and then take the blame if something goes wrong. Not a Robot or someone useing an expert skill program. :wink:

While a "real" ship would have a number of deckhands and mechanics, to take care of the cargo, routine maintenance, ect. Traveller has allways given us a break there, by leting the more skilled crew members take care of that on top of their main job.

----------------------------------------------------

I think of more concern is the fact that Repairs & Maintenance has been changed to Cr. 100 per ton of ship per month. From a 2 week yearly overhaul, at a cost of 0.1% of the cash price of the ship. Allso, with one level of Steward skill and 1 dT of cargo space per High passenger, only jump 3+ Liners of 800+ dT will be offering this service. Jump 1 and Jump 2 ships would do better to just have a single Steward and 10-15 Middle passengers.

Many small tradeships will be working hard to cover their operating expenses. How are they going to cover the monthly bank payments? Even if they make a 50% down payment, no one in their right mind would finance them in the first place. The risk vs reward and ROI stinks so bad. A Subsized Merchant is in just as much trouble. Once the 50% of gross receipts is payed, there is a good chance that there will not be enough money left to cover Fuel, Life support, Maintenance, and Crew Salaries.

Geting Fuel prosessors and skiming Gas Giants wastes to much time, for a tradeship. The most profitable and reliable cargo runs are form Highport to Highport, with only Refined fuel for sale. Going to Class C ports on midsized worlds that sell Unrefined fuel risks not geting a good cargo out, in a timely manner.

So you end up with lots of old "free" Scoutships. That try and stay on a rout with Scout bases and Scout waystations, because the Maintenance and fuel is free for them there. A few 600 dT Subsidized Merchants, tryng make it as mini-liners ( the 400 dT jump 1 TypeR is very bad ). A mix of 200 - 800 dT Corsairs, Cruisers, Armed Fast Merchant ships, ect ( that make their money on high value cargos and semi-military operations. ) Only speculators, smugglers, and the megacorps with their fleets of Jump3+ 1000+ dT ships will be able to make a ROI worth the risk of running a Spaceship. :cry:

It was hard enough for a Free Trader or Subsidized Merchant to make it before. Cost of operation is so high now, that "Tramp" cargo ships would be a rare thing. If you want lots of "cheep" 30MCr - 100MCr Starships around ( for those, not so nice Corsairs and Cruisers to pick on ). Then operating costs need to come back down to CT levels.

I know many people will not be running a campaign with Trade as the main plotline. But you want to have the Starships, from the Ship Shares Table be able to make a little money. At leat untill you can sink the main plotline hooks into your players :twisted:

Edit:

Ship building needs other fixes than the Power Plant / energy point problem.

Limits on Jump travel are by the max Tec Level of computer you can use, not the Jump drive you can build.

Armor is way to good for it's 5% space requirment and is not maxed at a ships Tec level.

50 dT weapon bays only needing one hardpoint and one gunner, will lead to lots of 1kT - 2kT missile Cruisers / SDB. That stand off at long range and pound anything without heavy anti-missile systems. i.e. 4 - 10 missle Bays pumping out 12 missles each, with the rest of the hardpoints used for sandcaster turrets and maybe a few laser turets. Remember the less energy you need to power your weapons the more is left for you high G MD and energy weapons use -alot- of energy.

Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 9:47 pm
by atpollard
AKAramis wrote:ANd you've got it wrong.
CP are determined by Price and TL. CP and computer are used to determine crew requirements. Panels are calculated separately.

Please, AT, if you're going to complain, at least bother to look up the rules you're casting aspersions on.
I stand corrected. :oops: I had designed a small craft with a Hypersonic airframe from COACC (if I remember correctly).

In my defense, it seems somewhat reasonable to assume that a required control panel would have a required crew member to look at it. :roll: I freely admit, however, that the entire experience left me sufficiently traumatized that I could not bring myself to actually look up those rules again. :shock: Too many nightmares lurked in those dark corners. :wink: :)

Posted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 5:24 am
by AKAramis
atpollard wrote:
AKAramis wrote:ANd you've got it wrong.
CP are determined by Price and TL. CP and computer are used to determine crew requirements. Panels are calculated separately.

Please, AT, if you're going to complain, at least bother to look up the rules you're casting aspersions on.
I stand corrected. :oops: I had designed a small craft with a Hypersonic airframe from COACC (if I remember correctly).

In my defense, it seems somewhat reasonable to assume that a required control panel would have a required crew member to look at it. :roll: I freely admit, however, that the entire experience left me sufficiently traumatized that I could not bring myself to actually look up those rules again. :shock: Too many nightmares lurked in those dark corners. :wink: :)
People often presumed a 1 panel = 1 person, and that's hardly the case. Take my wife's old job. She ran about 1.5 Td of electronics, from about 7 square meters of controls (At an average thickness of 5cm, counting knobs and wires) as a TV Master Control Operator. Given the size comparisons, that's about 5 dynamic linked panels. And the transmitter and tower are not included in the control station, but is controlled from it.

Likewise, as a projectionist in a college theater/auditorium, I used about 10 square meters of panels... 2 for the sound board, 4 for the EQ and Amp stack, 1.5 for the light board, 0.2 for the 16mm projectors, 1 for the DV stack, and another several small panels for various other things (including the master power box)...

It was excessive detail, counting all the panels, but not requiring extra crew...

And the COACC system wasn't fully compatible, so you were off the map if you built a starship with the COACC system... And COACC uses yet another crew formula (based upon mass of aircraft...)

Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 12:48 am
by Voodoo B Do
"In CT a 199 dTon starship with 35 dTons of drives (or 69 dTons of drives if you round down) and a tripple turret and lots of military electronics could be operated by a crew of 1. MoT's 1 per 50 would at least limit THAT abuse to a minimum crew of 3. "

ANY manufacturer that built a ship that the last man alive or awake couldn't operate alone is a pathetic manufacturer. Given the overall costs involved a few cents extra spent on automated systems is nothing. The maximum size of ship to one man operation has to be raised if only to satisfy the shipping lines requirements of reduced insurance costs. The latter also being a reason for regulation crew requirements.
Different shipping lines would have different regulations according to their insurance and assurance policy.
Exporters would require and pay for that extra insurance or pay less for transporting a cargo

There is a difference between regulation requirements and actual facility.
A bit like this adventure game called Traveller really!

Having met people who have moved thousands of displacement tons across highly unpredictable storms at sea ALONE i think most of this argument is off beam :|

Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 3:12 am
by hdrider67
Voodoo B Do wrote: Having met people who have moved thousands of displacement tons across highly unpredictable storms at sea ALONE i think most of this argument is off beam :|

Are you sure these guys didn't tell you a sea story? What class of ship did they claim? I know neither of my ships could have done that (8Ktons and 9Ktons) but they were steam plants. the newer turbines can get away with less but certainly not nil, AFAIK.

What the heck happened to the crews of multiple ships? If there are that many pirates, I'm thinking global warming will soon be another footnote in the history of histrionics. :D

Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 6:08 am
by AKAramis
hdrider67 wrote:
Voodoo B Do wrote: Having met people who have moved thousands of displacement tons across highly unpredictable storms at sea ALONE i think most of this argument is off beam :|

Are you sure these guys didn't tell you a sea story? What class of ship did they claim? I know neither of my ships could have done that (8Ktons and 9Ktons) but they were steam plants. the newer turbines can get away with less but certainly not nil, AFAIK.

What the heck happened to the crews of multiple ships? If there are that many pirates, I'm thinking global warming will soon be another footnote in the history of histrionics. :D
Most of the big boats can day trip on one man on bridge and one in engineering... but long term ops do require more crew for maintenance... You only need one engineer to start up and operate the drives. Everyone else on black gang is there to either give him time to sleep or do maintenance, usually both.

Likewise, multiple ship drivers are for sleep needs.

When ships get to "Lots of Electronic Commo"... then they add one or more operation and maintenance people, as well.

I don't mind it working out to 1 per 50... what I do mind is not having any formal way to know who is needed for what.

Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 4:41 pm
by Voodoo B Do
Lets not forget that the Captain has access to the medicine chest. That is how it is done days on end. And no the man had no reason to lie. I have known him many years.

Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 4:55 pm
by Voodoo B Do
Ok lets get on thread as it were.

10,000 ton fictional cargo spaceship in stable orbit round planet. All crew dead except Pilot. Same again but with Engineer. Same again but with Medic. Same again etc... Your thoughts on that? Personally, if there was no help coming or not likely to come, i would have a go wouldn't you?
(Wonder if the steward could become hero of the hour/week/jump!)

Someone with ships-boat would understand that there would be easy access to emergency procedures program/instruction. Time spent on that ship and social interaction with other crew previously would be a factor perhaps. Other circumstances would factor too some usefull some not.