Torpedo Boats in Traveller

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Condottiere
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Re: Torpedo Boats in Traveller

Postby Condottiere » Wed Oct 27, 2021 9:01 pm

Then let's see if we can design competitive manned starwarships.
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Re: Torpedo Boats in Traveller

Postby ottarrus » Thu Oct 28, 2021 12:40 am

Condottiere wrote:
Wed Oct 27, 2021 9:01 pm
Then let's see if we can design competitive manned starwarships.
Probably want to move this contest to a new thread, just so people won't have to slog through all our theorizing :roll: :shock: :D
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Re: Torpedo Boats in Traveller

Postby adzling » Thu Oct 28, 2021 11:25 pm

man this thread has veered crazily off-topic.

I just found my first officially published ship with significant armor.

It's the 300,000 ton Kehmed Class Dreadnought from Behind the Claw with 20 points of armor...
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Re: Torpedo Boats in Traveller

Postby Reynard » Fri Oct 29, 2021 1:56 am

Umm.... oh right, something about torpedo boats!
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Re: Torpedo Boats in Traveller

Postby Reynard » Fri Oct 29, 2021 1:51 pm

So then, drone torpedo bomber interceptors. You want then cheap so they are plentiful.

Torpedo bomber destroyer 5 tons TL 12 MCr.9.817
Hull: Dispersed, non-gravity, light
Armor: 7 crystaliron
Maneuver: 7
Power plant: Chemical [6pp] Basic power is 1/2 as their is no life support.
Fuel: 57 weeks
Bridge: None
Computer: 5
Software: Maneuver/0, library, Virtual crew/0 (Pilot, sensor operator, gunner) Suddenly I pictured Cylons.
Sensors: Military
Weapons: Firmpoint Missile rack

A cheap counter to torpedo bombers. This robotic interceptor can be dangerous to bomber with their missile rack with its high damage. For the cost for the cost, this defender can field two vessels for each bomber. TBDs, however are hampered in their tactical abilities with low skill and needing a remote operator to issue commands or fly a TBD directly like ground automated units which can't really learn just follow orders.

HG, page 64 - "Virtual Crew: While ships are vastly complicated to run, requiring highly trained crews, *relatively simple operations* can be performed by this software package."
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Re: Torpedo Boats in Traveller

Postby AnotherDilbert » Fri Oct 29, 2021 2:39 pm

Low skill isn't much of a problem for missiles.

But:
HG, p10 wrote: However a hull must be at least 10 tons.
Otherwise you could skip the sensors and make it a fraction of a Dt.
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Re: Torpedo Boats in Traveller

Postby AnotherDilbert » Fri Oct 29, 2021 2:52 pm

Two firmpoints and a barbette launching five missiles will get you better bang both for the buck and the tonnage.

A planetoid hull is even slightly cheaper, and makes it more difficult to kill.

Perhaps something like this:
35 Dt, MCr 13 in quantity, M-7 + R-7 = 14 G.
Armour 12 and Hull 23 for some durability.
Image
Added a reaction drive for some extra interception oomph, not that it is really necessary for missiles.

No sensors, but could be used in squadrons with a command craft with sensors (and a sensor operator for better performance).
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Re: Torpedo Boats in Traveller

Postby Reynard » Sat Oct 30, 2021 3:12 am

Thanks for pointing the minimum hull info. I thought it was somewhere but obviously kept missing it.
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Re: Torpedo Boats in Traveller

Postby Condottiere » Sat Oct 30, 2021 11:46 am

Minimum for smallcraft barbette.

Optionally, you could have one off torpedo grapples, and/or pods, I forget the terminology.
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Reynard
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Re: Torpedo Boats in Traveller

Postby Reynard » Sun Oct 31, 2021 1:04 am

I wonder if the 10 ton minimum is what you can fit a live crew person in with a cockpit and life support upping the numbers. I was trying to build the possible smallest hull optimally for the computer. Essentially the ship is the crew, a vehicular drone.

I tried 35 and 10 tons but too much leftover and therefore expensive padding to fill the frame. Want your H-Ks efficient and cheap.
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Re: Torpedo Boats in Traveller

Postby Sigtrygg » Sun Oct 31, 2021 1:39 am

Would they work if you use the vehicle building rules?

By the way this is the slippery slope to having AKVs for offensive and defensive use.

The intruder sends in their AKVs, missiles and torpedoes, backed up by a few manned smallcraft 'supervisors', the defender responds with theirs. Once the cloud of AFKs decide who has the advantage you are left with a decision - commit your really expensive crewed ships or retreat until you can tip the odds in your favour.
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Re: Torpedo Boats in Traveller

Postby Condottiere » Sun Oct 31, 2021 9:21 am

Minimums may depend on which side of the Rift you happen to be on.
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Reynard
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Re: Torpedo Boats in Traveller

Postby Reynard » Sun Oct 31, 2021 12:12 pm

Don't forget to add in on the bomber side the factor of taking down a target versus 'acceptable' losses. The design is fast and evasive, get to range, fire one maybe two salvos and run. If necessary, reload and prepare for another attack run. Seems historically standard.
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Re: Torpedo Boats in Traveller

Postby AnotherDilbert » Sun Oct 31, 2021 1:00 pm

Reynard wrote: Don't forget to add in on the bomber side the factor of taking down a target versus 'acceptable' losses.
A small amounts of missiles will just be countered by EW and PD. You have to launch overwhelming salvoes to be effective. That means you have to use massive amounts of craft, so they are not an acceptable loss.

But OK, risking fighters but not the carriers is better than risking all your ships.

Reynard wrote: The design is fast and evasive, get to range, fire one maybe two salvos and run. If necessary, reload and prepare for another attack run. Seems historically standard.
In MgT2 a 7 G craft takes 25/7 = 4 turns to get out of very long range, or 50/7 = 8 turns to get out of Distant range, and that is if the enemy is cooperative. Not enough to get out of the way of a counterattack.
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Re: Torpedo Boats in Traveller

Postby Arkathan » Sun Oct 31, 2021 6:17 pm

AnotherDilbert wrote:
Sun Oct 31, 2021 1:00 pm
In MgT2 a 7 G craft takes 25/7 = 4 turns to get out of very long range, or 50/7 = 8 turns to get out of Distant range, and that is if the enemy is cooperative. Not enough to get out of the way of a counterattack.
This is why you need a combined fleet engagement, with each group being a significant threat.
Do they shoot at the capital ships or the fighter/bombers?
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Re: Torpedo Boats in Traveller

Postby Condottiere » Sun Oct 31, 2021 10:05 pm

How close do you want to get, and how much time do you want to spend at that range?
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Re: Torpedo Boats in Traveller

Postby Reynard » Mon Nov 01, 2021 2:58 am

I was assuming Medium range when beam lasers become a nuisance while Standard and Antiradiation launched torpedoes hit immediately. Screws up EW attempts. PD is the worst threat and I notice not many ships carry it.
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Re: Torpedo Boats in Traveller

Postby AnotherDilbert » Mon Nov 01, 2021 11:33 am

Reynard wrote: I was assuming Medium range when beam lasers become a nuisance while Standard and Antiradiation launched torpedoes hit immediately.
You still have to get into Medium range. From Distant it takes 85 "Thrust" to get to Medium range, or 85/7 = 13 rounds, if the enemy ships don't evade.

13 rounds of counterattacks to withstand before you can attack...

Reynard wrote: Screws up EW attempts.
Certainly, at that short range, and that is important for the small salvoes fighter squadrons can launch.

Reynard wrote: PD is the worst threat and I notice not many ships carry it.
Laser turrets works perfectly well as PD, and are also quite effective at killing low-tech fighters.

I would consider Long Range Pulse Lasers to be the norm, they will start to be a problem at Very Long range. They will have at least 5 rounds to fire before the fighters get into Medium range. And then they do PD.
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Re: Torpedo Boats in Traveller

Postby Condottiere » Mon Nov 01, 2021 11:56 am

Attritional survival does favour swarms.

You may need a running start, and do an interception curve to medium range, and then away.
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Re: Torpedo Boats in Traveller

Postby Reynard » Tue Nov 02, 2021 2:03 pm

Watching Midway.

Torpedo bombers take out or cripple ships. Interceptors take out or cripple bombers while fighter escorts protect bombers from interceptors. Some win, some lose depending on luck, skill and construction. I notice historically we didn't give up on torpedo bombers just because someone said hypothetically some may get shot down.

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