Gun Combat and never missing.

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PsiTraveller
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Gun Combat and never missing.

Postby PsiTraveller » Sat Aug 28, 2021 11:20 am

Anyone else run into this? I have a player that has saved their money and purchased some tech upgrades.

They have Stat bonus +1
Gun Combat 2: so a +3 to their roll. This is a good base bonus to their combat monkey character. But the tech upgrades add to this.

Intelligent weapon: makes the weapon smart
P-Hud : +1 to attack roll
Smart Tracker: +2 to attack roll once the target has been tagged

So this combines to give a +6 to attack rolls. Even on a roll of 2 they still get an 8. This makes combat pretty terrifying for the other side.
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Re: Gun Combat and never missing.

Postby Condottiere » Sat Aug 28, 2021 11:38 am

Snake eyes should miss.

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Reisender
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Re: Gun Combat and never missing.

Postby Reisender » Sat Aug 28, 2021 11:50 am

While 8+ is the base difficulty there are some negative dice modifier for speed, cover and range to the target. Small creatures have an additional negative DM for size.
And he gets the DM+6 only with that specific weapon. But a base DM+3 is already quite nice.
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NOLATrav
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Re: Gun Combat and never missing.

Postby NOLATrav » Sat Aug 28, 2021 3:55 pm

Also ratchet up the abilities of the foes. Better armor, better weapons. Better skills - give him a taste of his own medicine.
GamingGlen
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Re: Gun Combat and never missing.

Postby GamingGlen » Sat Aug 28, 2021 4:04 pm

My issue is the 8+ target number. It belies real life statistics on gun combat. I want to make it 10+, you get +2 with a stationary/unaware target, but not after the enemy has had their initiative moment.
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Re: Gun Combat and never missing.

Postby Garran » Sat Aug 28, 2021 5:55 pm

It's 8 before any modifiers, but if they're in cover (why aren't they, if they're aware?) then you have -2 DM right there.

The problem with raising the base DM is that it will hurt everyone who isn't a specialist. Base DM 10 with -3 for nonproficiency means that they outright *can't* hit a stationary, medium-range target with no cover! Even Stormtroopers aren't (usually) that bad.


Honestly, though, I don't take the the punitive mindset. Being an amazing shot with their signature gun is one of the Cool Things (tm) that PC does. Work with it rather than trying to nerf it.

(Also, you never seem to see the same kind of how-dare-they when it's a skill like Admin or Advocate, even though a really high value there can be far more strategically dangerous...)
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ShawnDriscoll
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Re: Gun Combat and never missing.

Postby ShawnDriscoll » Sat Aug 28, 2021 11:47 pm

PsiTraveller wrote:
Sat Aug 28, 2021 11:20 am
So this combines to give a +6 to attack rolls. Even on a roll of 2 they still get an 8. This makes combat pretty terrifying for the other side.
What does role-play say about it?
Condottiere
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Re: Gun Combat and never missing.

Postby Condottiere » Sun Aug 29, 2021 10:09 am

Specialization does tend to be (more) in our future.

Reaction would be either to be better trained and shoot first, hit first, detection, outrange, and/or better protection.
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Re: Gun Combat and never missing.

Postby Saladman » Mon Sep 06, 2021 1:59 am

You are getting at a problem I have with the Central Supply Catalog, especially as a player-facing resource. Its got some pluses scattered through it that make it too easy for one or two players to be playing a different game than the GM and other players if they're starting from the core rulebook. I dislike that at a meta level, I'd rather have everything on the table from the beginning, and without having to powergame myself to keep up. It might be time to take a look at whether you really want to keep those mechanical options in the game as straight stacking pluses (I really think that +2 should have been +1 on a 2d6 scale, or they could have done something with Boon instead but the numbers were down before Boon was in the game). And if you don't want to remove those, at least take a look at what else is available and come to some decisions about what you're using.

But, you are leaving out some numbers if the player is getting straight to a 2 Can't Miss. Opponents can dodge (and should, rather than stand there and take it), they can dive for cover, they can take cover to begin with, they can wear armor, they can target the most dangerous opponent preferentially to make him dodge and take the penalty to his next attack (and if you take the skill scale seriously, while he doesn't personally have 4-Famous, he certainly has it effectively), they can have smart guns of their own... There's options if you're playing the full game.

And all that said, Traveller combat has traditionally been deadly, over quickly, and more about ambushes, positioning and superior firepower than most other rpgs, so in a broad sense things may be working as intended. As a GM you may have to vary your encounters. More individual combatants, drones or trained animals, a really big alien creature that isn't going down to one or two hits, an ambush, a sniper in an overwatch position, cheap disposable muscle sent in with stunners in a civilized area so if they win they get bailed out and if he wins he gets mindwiped or prison planeted... I'm sure there's more too.
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ottarrus
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Re: Gun Combat and never missing.

Postby ottarrus » Mon Sep 06, 2021 2:50 am

I live in an area with lots of veterans. And yes, a lot of combat veterans. So the back and forth about RPG combat can get pretty stupid.

A couple things to think about:

There is more to combat than just pulling a trigger. The first thing to consider is the recon 'battle'. Who is in the best position to detect who first? Even in the modern era the phrase 'if you can see it, you can kill it' applies. And it is amazing just how many Traveller players put thousands of credits into their guns, but don't own a pair of binoculars [much less a perimeter sensor system].

Skills besides Gun count. Athletics [Dex] allows you to duck for cover. Recon allows you to detect the enemy before they detect you. Tactics gives you a bump to initiative. And skills are more important than gear.

Gunfights have consequences. Just because the world can only manufacture TL 7 goods doesn't mean that they don't have TL 12 crime reduction capabilities. For example, there is a sensor system that cities in the US with high gun violence rates are installing called 'Shot Caller'. It's an acoustic signature system that's installed on street lamps that detects and localizes the sound of gunfire and allows police to respond both more quickly and more accurately than ever before. And that's not even getting into the face recognition stuff that's going on in Great Britain and France. All these technologies can be extended into the future. Audio signature capable to picking up the sound of Gauss weapons, light sensors that can detect laser light frequencies, DNA sequence recognition system for common areas... If you were so inclined, you could make the movie 'V' terrifyingly accurate for your PC's.

And insofar as the murder hobo with starship nonsense goes, most shipping ports routinely check to see if any freighter crews are wanted for questioning before a ship sails. That would be pretty SOP in any Traveller starport of grade C or better.

Now, were I the referee at the table, I would warn the players that they're solving problems with muzzle velocity solutions too often and that they need to start thinking outside that box. And a couple or three session later, the local cops will be waiting for them at the starport gate... "You're one of the few people on this world who is known to own a Gauss rifle, Mr. Eneri. It says so right here on your customs entry form. And oddly enough, there was a long string of Gauss weapon frequency gunfire in Startwon last night..."
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Re: Gun Combat and never missing.

Postby BugsyD » Thu Sep 09, 2021 12:39 am

ottarrus wrote:
Mon Sep 06, 2021 2:50 am

For example, there is a sensor system that cities in the US with high gun violence rates are installing called 'Shot Caller'. It's an acoustic signature system that's installed on street lamps that detects and localizes the sound of gunfire and allows police to respond both more quickly and more accurately than ever before.
In case you missed it, there are serious problems with ShotSpotter: https://apnews.com/article/artificial-i ... b54f9b6220
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ottarrus
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Re: Gun Combat and never missing.

Postby ottarrus » Thu Sep 09, 2021 1:19 am

BugsyD wrote:
Thu Sep 09, 2021 12:39 am
ottarrus wrote:
Mon Sep 06, 2021 2:50 am

For example, there is a sensor system that cities in the US with high gun violence rates are installing called 'Shot Caller'. It's an acoustic signature system that's installed on street lamps that detects and localizes the sound of gunfire and allows police to respond both more quickly and more accurately than ever before.
In case you missed it, there are serious problems with ShotSpotter: https://apnews.com/article/artificial-i ... b54f9b6220
I'm aware of the issues, from both a technical and civil liberties point of view. But just like with a lot of other technologies, I'm guessing that these problems will get ironed out as the technology matures.
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Re: Gun Combat and never missing.

Postby BugsyD » Sat Sep 11, 2021 1:20 am

A couple of other things I forgot to add:

1 - Deepfake videos are already hard to spot, and will only become more difficult in the next couple of decades. TL12 deepfakes would be undetectable, in my opinion.

2 - Chameleon technology exists at TL12 that makes armor very hard to detect. I don't know how that works, but I cant imagine it would be difficult to equip cloaks even a hoodie with that kind of tech.

Both of these things would (well, certainly SHOULD) vastly reduce the impact of video / photographic evidence:

Officer Smith "Johnson, we've got you on video firing a Gauss rifle at the Howard Johnson's last Friday night. What do you say to that?"

Johnson: "That's weird. Me and my crew had a BBQ in the hanger that night. Check the cameras."

Now, I don't like murderhobo nonsense, and I wont play with people like that. But playing in a hardcore "V" environment isn't my cup of tea, either.
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Re: Gun Combat and never missing.

Postby Condottiere » Sat Sep 11, 2021 11:52 am

Likely recordings will have some quantum entanglements that will allow authentication.

Deepfaking will be so sophisticated, that superficially there will be no difference between it and reality.

I think the problem will be second hand, or analogue copies, where the markers wouldn't be present, so it's less of a case of authentication, more that you couldn't beyond a shadow of a doubt.
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ShawnDriscoll
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Re: Gun Combat and never missing.

Postby ShawnDriscoll » Mon Sep 27, 2021 12:26 am

BugsyD wrote:
Sat Sep 11, 2021 1:20 am
1 - Deepfake videos are already hard to spot, and will only become more difficult in the next couple of decades. TL12 deepfakes would be undetectable, in my opinion.
Deepfake videos on SpaceTube won't matter to anyone. See entertainment.
TL12 videos will for sure use encryptsync datacloud storage that belongs to a sole person. With copies being near impossible to make/alter.
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NOLATrav
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Re: Gun Combat and never missing.

Postby NOLATrav » Mon Sep 27, 2021 2:27 am

ShawnDriscoll wrote:
Mon Sep 27, 2021 12:26 am
BugsyD wrote:
Sat Sep 11, 2021 1:20 am
1 - Deepfake videos are already hard to spot, and will only become more difficult in the next couple of decades. TL12 deepfakes would be undetectable, in my opinion.
Deepfake videos on SpaceTube won't matter to anyone. See entertainment.
TL12 videos will for sure use encryptsync datacloud storage that belongs to a sole person. With copies being near impossible to make/alter.
Perhaps, on TL12 worlds or whatever. Take your TL12 propaganda to a TL7 world and see what happens.
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Re: Gun Combat and never missing.

Postby Garran » Mon Sep 27, 2021 4:28 am

If there's one thing that Cyberpunk-genre games tell us, it's that that sort of all-encompassing digital security setup becomes a playground ere long...
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Re: Gun Combat and never missing.

Postby Condottiere » Mon Sep 27, 2021 11:11 am

A non-fungible token (NFT) is a unit of data stored on a digital ledger, called a blockchain, that certifies a digital asset to be unique and therefore not interchangeable.[1] NFTs can be used to represent items such as photos, videos, audio, and other types of digital files. Access to any copy of the original file, however, is not restricted to the buyer of the NFT. While copies of these digital items are available for anyone to obtain, NFTs are tracked on blockchains to provide the owner with a proof of ownership that is separate from copyright.
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Heartwarder
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Re: Gun Combat and never missing.

Postby Heartwarder » Fri Oct 01, 2021 11:34 am

On the fact that it is so hard to miss with ranged attacks in ground combat, I did a bit of an experiment.
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First lets see graphs of how a generic assault rifle (Core Rulebook, page 118) handles against a target dummy at various ranges at the hands of a generic soldier (DEX and Skill DM +3): *note that images are published as 1drv links since I am having problems making actual images to show
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As you can see, even with +1 Aiming an average Joe can achieve ~50% percent hit rate with an item representing contemporary assault rifle - i.e. M-16 - at ranges of up to 800 meters (875 yards). With prolonged aiming hit rate is almost 100% up to that range. Even snapshot - no aiming - has a ~30% chance to hit up to that 800 m range. That is clearly ridiculous...
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So, what am I getting at?
We can go and blame all manner of attachments for "never missing" guns, and there are problems there, don't get me wrong, but as demonstrated above, the underlying system is producing unrealistic, and more importantly uninteresting (when everyone always hits and you can only soak damage, it becomes a game of armor) game.
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Heartwarder
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Re: Gun Combat and never missing.

Postby Heartwarder » Fri Oct 01, 2021 11:34 am

Solution (kindoff, more like a quick patch)
As described on page 73 of the Core Rulebook, effects of range on shooting are simulated with modifiers. System has four range brackets:
  • Short Range for DM +1 - form 0 to 25% of the nominal range given on the statblock - in our case its 50 meters (55 yards)
  • Nominal Range for no DM - from 25% to 100% of the nominal range - for assault rifle that is from 50 to 200 meters (55 to 219 yards)
  • Long Range for DM -2 - from 100% to 200% of the nominal range - 200 to 400 meters (219 to 437 yards)
  • Extreme Range for DM -4 - from 200% to 400% of the nominal range - 400 to 800 meters (437 to 875 yards)
.
After fiddling with these modifiers a bit, I arrived at a set that produces more "realistic" hit rates for this experimental setup without introducing any new "mechanics" into the game:
  • Short Range for no DM (instead of DM +1)
  • Nominal Range for DM -2 (instead of no DM)
  • Long Range for DM -4 (instead of DM -2)
  • Extreme Range for DM -8 (instead of DM -4)
.
The hit rates it produces given below: I am using this set at my table until a better solution is found, it is not perfect, but it works and without any extra steps.
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Other potential fix ideas
It may be possible to remove "Aiming" action altogether and use Time Frame mechanic (Core Rulebook, page 60) instead - so a Major Action only gives you a snapshot (with all the penalties for no aiming), but to get an aimed shot character needs 1D Combat Rounds, also reducing the difficulty class. Have not tried this at my table though
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Do you think it is good enough a fix? Or the to-hit has to be further reworked? I would be happy for any suggestions to improve the game as long as it does not introduce a major increase in complexity...

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