High Guard Update - Comments Needed!

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NOLATrav
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Re: High Guard Update - Comments Needed!

Postby NOLATrav » Thu Aug 05, 2021 11:00 pm

Sigtrygg wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 6:53 pm
So basically all you are after is a cartoon physics cinematic system - no thanks.

It is perfectly possible to base an rpg ship combat resolution system on 'real' physics that emphasizes player actions
Well, we’ve all sort of been looking for that for quite a long time. From the original LBB to Mayday to Brilliant Lances, homebrew systems across the internet to Mongoose’s HG 1e hex-based vector system… they all make strong efforts on this front. But I feel play styles have changed and the level of detail and time required for ‘realistic’ space combat is generally less attractive to most than systems that have quicker and easier rules.

What’s your go-to system for resolving space combat?
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Re: High Guard Update - Comments Needed!

Postby paltrysum » Thu Aug 05, 2021 11:05 pm

Space combat is actually not the province of High Guard anyway. It's covered in the CRB. However, as described above, fleet combat will be covered. True, vector-based combat is more the realm of a separate game, like Mayday, Brilliant Lances or Battle Rider.
My published Traveller adventures on DriveThruRPG:
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Re: High Guard Update - Comments Needed!

Postby cunningrat » Fri Aug 06, 2021 2:24 pm

Geir wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 2:56 am
Gaming space is an odd-hang-on that should just go.
One way you can tell this game was written by (no offense intended) geeks: there's no way to put a gym on board a spaceship, unless you use the gaming space. Perhaps this should be fixed? :D

Also: can we please have combined tables for starship weapons, with info from the CRB and High Guard (and optionally from the JTAS publications) all in one place?
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Re: High Guard Update - Comments Needed!

Postby NOLATrav » Fri Aug 06, 2021 3:07 pm

cunningrat wrote:
Fri Aug 06, 2021 2:24 pm
Also: can we please have combined tables for starship weapons, with info from the CRB and High Guard (and optionally from the JTAS publications) all in one place?
+1 for this
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Re: High Guard Update - Comments Needed!

Postby AndrewW » Fri Aug 06, 2021 5:06 pm

cunningrat wrote:
Fri Aug 06, 2021 2:24 pm
One way you can tell this game was written by (no offense intended) geeks: there's no way to put a gym on board a spaceship, unless you use the gaming space. Perhaps this should be fixed? :D
That would come under Common Areas.
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Re: High Guard Update - Comments Needed!

Postby Condottiere » Fri Aug 06, 2021 5:49 pm

Let's assume that common areas don't draw extra power, but come under basic.

Then what you do, is just give a list of possibilities, likely tonnage, and any benefits or penalties, and costs.

Like a laundromat, or an advanced toilet, with automatic cleansing.
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Re: High Guard Update - Comments Needed!

Postby Geir » Fri Aug 06, 2021 8:58 pm

AndrewW wrote:
Fri Aug 06, 2021 5:06 pm
cunningrat wrote:
Fri Aug 06, 2021 2:24 pm
One way you can tell this game was written by (no offense intended) geeks: there's no way to put a gym on board a spaceship, unless you use the gaming space. Perhaps this should be fixed? :D
That would come under Common Areas.
Right. My point on Gaming Space was that Common Area is MCr 0.1 per ton, but Gaming Space is MCr 0.006 per ton. It should all be considered Common Area. Or, there is Training Facilities, which costs MCr 0.2 and uses 1 power point per ton (but needs 2 tons per person rather than gaming's 1.5), which would make sense as a replacement for Gaming Space. In all cases, having these 'extras' tie into crew morale, fatigue, and efficiency would be a great thing. Otherwise, they have no more meaning than the font used for the name of the ship (so, yeah, nothing).
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Re: High Guard Update - Comments Needed!

Postby agentwigggles » Sun Aug 08, 2021 7:23 am

Over on the discord, we've been lightly joking about placing swimming pools on space ships.


I was making J6 Fast Yacht for Sector Leaders and Multi sub sector CEO. It came out to be 20k with 100 something tons of common area. And much like how it was suggested that you can Blah Blah Blah Blah Gyms as part of the Common Area.It still felt weird that a resplendent galley and a picnic table in the corner, cost the same. Or for that matter a swimming pool.

Something I really enjoy from the Vehicle handbook is the addition of Hot tubs and wet bars and holo suits. It struck me that thats lacking for space ships.
Right now you cant exactly make a Cruise Ship or a Pleasure station, two staple of Sci Fi right. And yea, we can give a cruise ship like 1000 tons of common area, and just go, 'this is a buffet, this is a theater, this is a pool'. Its weird that they they all take up the same amount of space, same power, same life support cost.

I think Geir is right. Gaming Area, Training Area is all just common area.

I think its worthwhile to explore, all these ships ad ons, be reconsider under a new system. Wherein you have a Ship with a lot more Common Area, which is then filled with these ad ons. Armories, Brig, Gaming Area, Salon ect. I think it would be great and definitely work the page space to include a lot of more fun misc. items. Like say, the Holosuit and Hot Tub from vehicle hand book. And while say an Opera Theater may not be common on space ships, it could totally be on Space Stations. How else are we suppose to listen to a blue lady do some kick ass opera, then cut some stones out of belly, if we dont have an Opera Theater.

And I dont think this is a very dramatic change. I think it may may ship building easier, as you dont need to consider the tonnage per ad on, just the tonnage for the common area. And the common area now can operate as a natural budget for these items.
-------------
As a seperate suggestion. I think its worthwhile to adopt the common house rule that ship shares can also be used for modfying the starting ship instead of just being applied to the mortage.
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Re: High Guard Update - Comments Needed!

Postby MonkeyX » Sun Aug 08, 2021 7:31 am

If you’re updating the sensor rules please include the transponder rules from the Companion. I waited a fair amount of time to see how those two systems worked together. The expanded jump rules in there also wouldn’t go amiss.
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Re: High Guard Update - Comments Needed!

Postby Condottiere » Sun Aug 08, 2021 1:37 pm

I have an interest in container housing, and whether it's a good or bad idea, one commentator I was following said that converting one into a swimming pool is definitely a bad one.

All that water creates greater outward pressure, and you're going to have to reinforce that.

In theory, our fuel tanks are free, in practice, while I don't know know about the pressure from hydrogen, if they were filled with water, they'd probably need armoured bulkheads.
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Re: High Guard Update - Comments Needed!

Postby AndrewW » Sun Aug 08, 2021 1:56 pm

agentwigggles wrote:
Sun Aug 08, 2021 7:23 am
I was making J6 Fast Yacht for Sector Leaders and Multi sub sector CEO. It came out to be 20k with 100 something tons of common area. And much like how it was suggested that you can Blah Blah Blah Blah Gyms as part of the Common Area.It still felt weird that a resplendent galley and a picnic table in the corner, cost the same. Or for that matter a swimming pool.

Something I really enjoy from the Vehicle handbook is the addition of Hot tubs and wet bars and holo suits. It struck me that thats lacking for space ships.
Right now you cant exactly make a Cruise Ship or a Pleasure station, two staple of Sci Fi right. And yea, we can give a cruise ship like 1000 tons of common area, and just go, 'this is a buffet, this is a theater, this is a pool'. Its weird that they they all take up the same amount of space, same power, same life support cost.
That was on purpose rather then trying to include stuff for everything one might want it was simplified into a space that could be defined into different purposes. Yes, some stuff might be more expensive or take more power but some would be cheaper, think of it more like an average.
agentwigggles wrote:
Sun Aug 08, 2021 7:23 am
I think Geir is right. Gaming Area, Training Area is all just common area.
Those where done since there are specific rules attached to those.
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Re: High Guard Update - Comments Needed!

Postby agentwigggles » Sun Aug 08, 2021 2:00 pm

Condottiere wrote:
Sun Aug 08, 2021 1:37 pm
I have an interest in container housing, and whether it's a good or bad idea, one commentator I was following said that converting one into a swimming pool is definitely a bad one.

All that water creates greater outward pressure, and you're going to have to reinforce that.

In theory, our fuel tanks are free, in practice, while I don't know know about the pressure from hydrogen, if they were filled with water, they'd probably need armoured bulkheads.
We have a lot of straight up magical technologies, none of which supported by container house conversations either. I think its not unreasonable to have a swiming pool in space.
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Re: High Guard Update - Comments Needed!

Postby Condottiere » Sun Aug 08, 2021 2:30 pm

I didn't say it was unreasonable, I implied it's going to cost you.
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Re: High Guard Update - Comments Needed!

Postby Condottiere » Sun Aug 08, 2021 2:45 pm

Come to think of it, it may be covered under multi environment space.

One tonne of equipment needed for every twenty tonnes so designated, at half a megastarbux per tonne, and one power point.

Seems to lack structural reinforcement, but there you have your swimming pool.
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Re: High Guard Update - Comments Needed!

Postby Geir » Sun Aug 08, 2021 5:14 pm

AndrewW wrote:
Sun Aug 08, 2021 1:56 pm
agentwigggles wrote:
Sun Aug 08, 2021 7:23 am
I think Geir is right. Gaming Area, Training Area is all just common area.
Those where done since there are specific rules attached to those.
I was actually saying that Training Area makes sense, Gaming doesn't. Gaming is way cheaper than Common and the only rule I see is self-contained in the description. Plus, it offers no benefit; it's just a statement. (See my note on making things count for something, like morale). Training would be a good substitute for Gaming and the cost makes sense. I would like to see everything to have some external rule to it, not necessarily creating a bunch of new categories, but providing some sort of 'morale points' for more generous (or less generous) accommodations. As for Training Area, providing a skill learning advantage like a library does - except for physical skills - would make sense.
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Re: High Guard Update - Comments Needed!

Postby Annatar Giftbringer » Sun Aug 08, 2021 5:24 pm

Geir wrote:
Sun Aug 08, 2021 5:14 pm
AndrewW wrote:
Sun Aug 08, 2021 1:56 pm
agentwigggles wrote:
Sun Aug 08, 2021 7:23 am
I think Geir is right. Gaming Area, Training Area is all just common area.
Those where done since there are specific rules attached to those.
I was actually saying that Training Area makes sense, Gaming doesn't. Gaming is way cheaper than Common and the only rule I see is self-contained in the description. Plus, it offers no benefit; it's just a statement. (See my note on making things count for something, like morale). Training would be a good substitute for Gaming and the cost makes sense. I would like to see everything to have some external rule to it, not necessarily creating a bunch of new categories, but providing some sort of 'morale points' for more generous (or less generous) accommodations. As for Training Area, providing a skill learning advantage like a library does - except for physical skills - would make sense.
Kind of like how the common area/stateroom ratio affects long-term morale in the Naval Campaign book?
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Re: High Guard Update - Comments Needed!

Postby Geir » Sun Aug 08, 2021 6:46 pm

Annatar Giftbringer wrote:
Sun Aug 08, 2021 5:24 pm
Geir wrote:
Sun Aug 08, 2021 5:14 pm
AndrewW wrote:
Sun Aug 08, 2021 1:56 pm



Those where done since there are specific rules attached to those.
I was actually saying that Training Area makes sense, Gaming doesn't. Gaming is way cheaper than Common and the only rule I see is self-contained in the description. Plus, it offers no benefit; it's just a statement. (See my note on making things count for something, like morale). Training would be a good substitute for Gaming and the cost makes sense. I would like to see everything to have some external rule to it, not necessarily creating a bunch of new categories, but providing some sort of 'morale points' for more generous (or less generous) accommodations. As for Training Area, providing a skill learning advantage like a library does - except for physical skills - would make sense.
Kind of like how the common area/stateroom ratio affects long-term morale in the Naval Campaign book?
Yes, though I meant Fatigue. There's a "Cramped" and "Generous" accommodation interval DM, but those terms aren't defined in detail and don't account for double vs. single occupancy cabins. I suppose they would vary a bit by species and culture (I still think the individual staterooms must be some sort of Vilani privacy fetish thing) but the defaults should be defined - to the point where a spreadsheet would kick out a result of at least Generous/Average/Cramped, with an optional "Horrible" and "Intolerable". Obviously what a human considers generous a K'Kree might consider intolerable... (although not the way it was written up in Aliens Volume One - I think they need more space than that if you do the math). With bonus points for biospheres, libraries, and training areas, or other 'refuges'.
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Re: High Guard Update - Comments Needed!

Postby Annatar Giftbringer » Sun Aug 08, 2021 7:25 pm

I had to re-check the book, but the amount of accomodation in relation to staterooms was fatigue-related (p.58), not morale as I claimed.

That said, I’d love more in-depth rules for this, and especially if they’re broken down for different species as well as the level of training of the crew.

A social species like Vargr would presumably appreciate large common areas where they can be together with the pack, while they could probably handle small private sleeping areas, whereas K’Kree and Virushi needs large amounts of both due to their size. Droyne already have their own sleeping arrangements (pod-cluster, Aliens of Charted Space vol.2, p.169) and a well-trained crew that’s prepared for a looong cruise (Deepnight Revelation) would probably get a bonus.

Changing the necessary amount of living and common area depending on species would also lead to more differences between ships, and variety is always fun :)
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Re: High Guard Update - Comments Needed!

Postby Condottiere » Sun Aug 08, 2021 11:02 pm

For gaming, you can stuff a pair of spectacled screens on the participant, wified to the ship's computer.

A gaming station could just be a workstation, firewalled, with a lazy boy, so half a tonne. Or an acceleration couch.
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Re: High Guard Update - Comments Needed!

Postby Cleon_Entun » Sun Aug 15, 2021 1:03 am

Oh boys, when I saw this subject I knew I had to make an account. Hope I'm not too late for the party.

I'm happy to learn about the new sensor operations - as a soon-to-be Naval Adventure Gamemaster and an actual Naval Adventure player, I've always been a little lost when using sensors sweeps. Being the most important part of a patrol job -actually finding the target- needs a little more fluffing and rulings in my opinion.

I'm also happy to hear about an expansion on the crew roles and a simple fleet operation system.

About the fleet operation system, I have two things to say about it :
-I think it should incorporate more ways for ships to assist with one another - be it helping with the point defence, placing one ship on the way of these dastardly torpedoes heading for another one, this kind of thing. In the current Capital Ship System, I feel that escorts are way too underpowered and notre really escorting their heavy ship.
-I may have made mistake on the old system Capital Ship Battle system, but I think a ship the size of an Element Class cruiser one-shot himself and then some when using their spinal weapons. Granted, it makes these fearsome weapons to uphold their reputations, but it also makes the game harder for a Naval Adventure fight to happen and not be completely one-sided or ended in one round.
I maybe made a mistake. To my knowledge, the Element cruisers are about 2 500 HP and a shot from it's main gun would make 10 000 points of damage - even with the (welcome) percentile damage table, it would just need a 25% to clean the stars from itself.

Some things I would like to find in this new High Guard :
-Rules to make an expanded use of the supplies - the creation of the Supplies Units are, in my mind, a very good thing, but I'm feeling that we can do more with this than just a steadily decreasing number and more like a currency for actions, boosts for some operations (Spend X SU to organise a specific training in order for them to have a boon on the next check).
-Expanded "fluff" about the daily jobs
-ECCM Uses to make the most of the military operations ? It may overlap with sensors.
-More heavy starships to use in Naval Adventure with/against the element cruisers.
-More ideas on the refuelling/resupplying in operation ; Even if the Traveller Companion has good rules on gas giant skimming, I always wondered how much time should the resupply take in Naval Bases, B-class starport, from resupply ship to another ship, etc...

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