Fuel for vehicles

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Lorgan
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Fuel for vehicles

Postby Lorgan » Thu Jul 22, 2021 9:42 pm

I couldn't find it explicitly stated in the Core Rulebook, nor in the Vehicle Handbook: what type and amount of fuel vehicles use? I would assume, that at least some of them would run on hydrogen, but definitely not all. If so, I'm wondering if it could be repurposed to power a spacecraft, or would the amount available in a vehicle tank be too insignificant.
AnotherDilbert
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Re: Fuel for vehicles

Postby AnotherDilbert » Fri Jul 23, 2021 12:56 am

Intentionally not defined.
Vehicle Handbook, p2 wrote: The key to this is that the design system focuses on the final performance of a vehicle, rather than all of its individual components. You will not find complicated charts of different engines, reactors and other power systems, cross-referenced with a vehicle’s mass and aerodynamic performance. At the end of the day, whether a vehicle is propelled by steam or a fusion reactor driving gravitic thrusters is completely up to you. What is important, as far as its design is concerned, is how fast it can go and what it can carry as it travels.

See sidebar Vehicles Handbook, p60 for default power plant types per TL.


The amount of fuel in a vehicle is unlikely to be significant to a spacecraft, but if it's hydrogen it should be usable.


I assume any vehicle carried aboard a spacecraft uses the same fuel as the spacecraft (hydrogen) or is battery powered, recharged by the spacecraft.
Lorgan
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Re: Fuel for vehicles

Postby Lorgan » Fri Jul 23, 2021 10:47 am

That's exactly what I needed. Thanks!
Condottiere
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Re: Fuel for vehicles

Postby Condottiere » Fri Jul 23, 2021 11:53 am

Image
Saladman
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Re: Fuel for vehicles

Postby Saladman » Sun Aug 01, 2021 10:28 pm

Chrysler, in the 60s no less, manufactured a limited number of turbine engine cars. They could run on almost anything: gas, diesel, alcohol, vegetable oil of any kind. Chrysler never got the cost of production down to anything the market would support, and emissions standards eventually drove a stake through the heart of the concept, but it's entirely feasible.

I like to imagine there's a number of those floating around a Traveller-verse though. Especially for higher tech worlds making goods for export or simple cost+durability.

Does nothing for what you're asking, I just think it's interesting.
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Heartwarder
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Re: Fuel for vehicles

Postby Heartwarder » Sat Aug 14, 2021 5:23 pm

Not a direct answer about the fuel costs, but you may notice that optional maintenance costs rule for vehicles (VHB, page 3) offers a ratio of 0.5% of the vehicle nominal cost per month (6% annually), while starship maintenance (HG, page 22) is much much less at 0.1% of the ship nominal cost per year.
For comparison: an MCr10 small craft (can be a basic space fighter or a medium sized shuttle) would require Cr834 for maintenance monthly, while an MCr10 vehicle (an IFV or a light g/fighter) would require Cr50000 for maintenance monthly. Even a simple standard air raft - nominal cost MCr0.25 - would require Cr1250 in maintenance monthly.
It is reasonable to assume fuel costs are included in that ridiculously high maintenance.
Although I do recommend homebrewing vehicle maintenance and fuel costs, because rules as written, vehicle maintenance means owning a vehicle becomes an unreasonable drain on resources while only occasionally being useful. For my games I use custom ratio for maintenance of both ships, vehicles and gear at 0.5% of nominal cost monthly. Fuel expenses for vehicles paid on top, calculated using a simplistic method - VHB offers option to save space by sacrificing fuel capacity, so fuel tank estimation is the amount of space you can save by removing all fuel. Cost of fuel is equal to ship fuel for simplicity. Usually the dirty version, but for expensive military vehicles you might require purified fuel.
Peleliu
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Re: Fuel for vehicles

Postby Peleliu » Fri Aug 20, 2021 6:36 pm

I was recently working on monthly maintenance costs myself. I agree with Heartwarder. I think 0.1% per month for spacecraft is far too low. Monthly costs should be 0.5% for both vehicles and fuel. Vehicle maintenance would include fuel. Spacecraft fuel is best handled as an additional cost and is already hardwired into the system as such.

My real world personal family vehicles have regular fuel and maintenance costs around about 5%. Even more if if something breaks (i.e. shop overhaul).

Just a quick look at real world ship maintenance costs shows a couple of examples that back up a rough estimate of 5-6% per year. Panamax container ships cost $74-$105 million and have annual operating costs of around $9 million (half of which is fuel) - roughly $4 million per year for maintenance. A Ford class aircraft carrier runs $12 billion. An estimate I saw puts annual maintenance & parts at perhaps $500 million.

I think 0.5% for monthly maintenance across the board is a nice compromise. The increased costs for spacecraft would give players more incentive to hustle to pay for the increased costs. Perhaps by hauling something riskier than lumber and cattle? Perhaps they had to skip a maintenance cycle and something broke? Perhaps they need to strip down their ship to the basics (or below) to reduce monthly costs? It all adds to possible paths to new adventures.
DarkDawning
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Re: Fuel for vehicles

Postby DarkDawning » Sat Aug 21, 2021 11:10 am

Peleliu wrote:
Fri Aug 20, 2021 6:36 pm


Just a quick look at real world ship maintenance costs shows a couple of examples that back up a rough estimate of 5-6% per year. Panamax container ships cost $74-$105 million and have annual operating costs of around $9 million (half of which is fuel) - roughly $4 million per year for maintenance. A Ford class aircraft carrier runs $12 billion. An estimate I saw puts annual maintenance & parts at perhaps $500 million.

I think 0.5% for monthly maintenance across the board is a nice compromise. The increased costs for spacecraft would give players more incentive to hustle to pay for the increased costs. Perhaps by hauling something riskier than lumber and cattle? Perhaps they had to skip a maintenance cycle and something broke? Perhaps they need to strip down their ship to the basics (or below) to reduce monthly costs? It all adds to possible paths to new adventures.
The Panamax operating cost would include more than just fuel and maintenance also crew compensation (pay, insurances etc.) expected docking fees, and a host of other expenses to operate the vessel as well as the average repair and and preventive maintenance of the ship. So that 4 million a year is not just spare parts and repair labor :)

Yes each month of skipped maintenance causes a chance of failure ,jump failure is common result
Condottiere
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Re: Fuel for vehicles

Postby Condottiere » Sat Aug 21, 2021 11:24 am

Currently, I'm going through the Vehicle book, and for twenty percent space allocation, with a minimum of ten spaces, you can install a technological level ten fusion reactor that runs a century without refuelling.

Doesn't quite sync with spacecraft design rules, but knock yourself out.
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Heartwarder
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Re: Fuel for vehicles

Postby Heartwarder » Tue Aug 24, 2021 6:44 pm

Condottiere wrote:
Sat Aug 21, 2021 11:24 am
Doesn't quite sync with spacecraft design rules...
That is to put it mildly :wink:
The vagueness of the rules and lack of examples don't help either. At this point, after investing a year into making a spreadsheet to help building and running vehicles, making countless vehicles and running battles from biker gangs on urban streets to tanks to g/fighters, I would argue that the whole thing should be redesigned from scratch.
Condottiere
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Re: Fuel for vehicles

Postby Condottiere » Tue Aug 24, 2021 8:40 pm

Price for electronics are very seductive.
GamingGlen
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Re: Fuel for vehicles

Postby GamingGlen » Fri Aug 27, 2021 8:56 pm

Condottiere wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 11:53 am
Image

I think those working on Fusion Power are on the wrong line of thinking.
This looks more feasible. :D

I wonder what the common snide remake will be in the far future when the power plant of a vehicle is underperforming if at all. Will they still refer to some rodent/wheel combination not functioning properly?
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Re: Fuel for vehicles

Postby Condottiere » Fri Aug 27, 2021 10:09 pm

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Jump drive.

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