Hypothetical situation

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AndrewW
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Hypothetical situation

Postby AndrewW » Fri Nov 06, 2020 3:58 am

Suppose a member world of the Third Imperium had an elected planetary president. Near the end of his term there is another election, after trying to discredit the election every way he can, the victory is awarded to another. He refuses to accept the results and leave office. The planetary government asks the Third Imperium for help, what would they do?

Could see adventure possibilities here the Travellers could be deniable assets.
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Re: Hypothetical situation

Postby Linwood » Fri Nov 06, 2020 5:43 am

If it’s a relatively minor world and the request for aid was public the Imperium might send in a mediator to help negotiate a settlement. That’s the kind of problem they’d rather have the member world solve on their own, but acting as a neutral third-party to help resolve the issue would bolster the Imperial image without a big commitment in resources. PCs might be on the mediation team or might act as covert intelligence gatherers for that team helping to discreetly guide the conversation in the most Imperium-friendly direction. Another thought - the PCs might be contracted to help ensure a safe trip into exile for the former president and family, devoted lackeys, and various keepsakes and treasures. That could get exciting...

If the member world is strategically important (important trade hub, etc.) the Imperium may determine that the situation needs to be resolved quickly. The PCs might be part of an extraction team (kidnapping the former president and holding him/her for trial), assassination squad (by accident or sudden illness), or maybe use intimidation, bribery or blackmail to get the former president leave ‘voluntarily’. This would likely involve some covert action.

If it’s somewhere like Corridor without an Archduke to ride herd on the lesser nobles it might become a hotspot of intrigue as various sector dukes scheme to help one faction or another. The PCs might be negotiators, assassins, dirty tricks specialists, simply caught up in the mess trying to make a credit.
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Re: Hypothetical situation

Postby ShawnDriscoll » Fri Nov 06, 2020 7:39 am

The Imperium is only interested if it interferes with the Imperium's business.
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Re: Hypothetical situation

Postby Ursus Maior » Fri Nov 06, 2020 11:10 am

The 3I might also be interested, if it serves the interests of one of its agents, i. e. the duke or archduke. It is never prudent for a higher governmental body to have distrust and chaos among its lower tier administrations or (in case of the 3I) members.

Sending envoys, cultural attaches and intelligence assets is the least that will happen, if planetary matters start concerning (i. e. get noticed by) the powers in charge. From there on, everything is possible as external intervention has a tendency to spiral into more volatile situations.

This might very well end in a situation akin to Simok (Trojan Reaches 3113).
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Re: Hypothetical situation

Postby paltrysum » Fri Nov 06, 2020 6:40 pm

The Imperium has a bureaucratic arm, a.k.a., the nobility. While nobles do not govern worlds, they do administer them for the Emperor. I'm sure the local noble, whatever her or his rank, would be willing to listen to any arguments from the aggrieved but ultimately, the Imperium does not interfere in local affairs so long as Imperial laws are not being broken. They don't typically get involved if there are corruption shenanigans unless the outcome might somehow entail violations of Imperial law.
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Re: Hypothetical situation

Postby Condottiere » Fri Nov 06, 2020 7:22 pm

Ambassadorial tax farmers.

Sometimes, an authoritarian despot serves the aims of the hegemonic overlord better, then democratically elected leader.
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Re: Hypothetical situation

Postby Sigtrygg » Fri Nov 06, 2020 8:25 pm

The Imperium couldn't care less about the politics of a member world provided their taxes are paid and interstellar trade doesn't suffer.

If el presidente is causing an issue with paying Imperial taxes then the Imperium will support their successor, if the successor is the problem they will support el presidente. The local subsector duke is the arbiter for the dispute, and may delegate the task to a more local lesser noble, who in turn seeks to make some personal gain for the resolution of the incident. This may or may not include the use of Imperial assets, house assets, megacorp assets or a group of mercenaries, ethically challenged merchants or other ner do wells who will solve the issue at the noble's behest.
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Re: Hypothetical situation

Postby Condottiere » Fri Nov 06, 2020 8:35 pm

He may also be his nephew or son in law.

Or someone else's.
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Re: Hypothetical situation

Postby Pyromancer » Sat Nov 07, 2020 10:17 am

The Imperium has an interest in peaceful, prosperous worlds. They have no particular interest that those worlds uphold democratic principles. The more important the world is, the more they will get involved. The local noble will surely offer to mediate or try to help find a mediator accepted by both sides. They might also lend "mercenaries" or other "assets" to one side or the other to quickly end the conflict.

In My Traveller Universe, there are "special ambassadors", trusted nobles with small, fast ships and a competent entourage (ie player characters) for exactly this kind of job. At my table, their mission would be: "Restore peace to this world." How this is done? Which side wins? The Imperium doesn't care. Just make sure the planet doesn't erupt in full scale civil war. That would be bad for business..
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Re: Hypothetical situation

Postby Sigtrygg » Sat Nov 07, 2020 10:21 am

A great deal will depend on how interventionist the local duke is.

A group of freelancers is always preferred since the Imperium can then distance themselves if it all goes horribly wrong.

If it does all go horribly wrong the IN and the marines can be sent in to sort it out.
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Re: Hypothetical situation

Postby Linwood » Sat Nov 07, 2020 12:21 pm

I think we may be forgetting the potential role of mega corps in this. A megacorp might choose to intervene covertly in order to support a 'business-friendly' local government, to weaken a competitor who already a sizable presence insystem, to drive one side into a more favorable position on an issue or a large contract, or simply to to create a market for its products (our brand-new 'RightStuff' gauss pistols are perfect for protecting one's family and property in these uncertain times). Those interests may or may not conflict with the interests of the local Imperial nobility or even the Imperium itself.
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Re: Hypothetical situation

Postby Condottiere » Sat Nov 07, 2020 1:30 pm

Going by the Roman, and practically most colonial models, local strongmen would be preferable.
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Re: Hypothetical situation

Postby Ursus Maior » Sat Nov 07, 2020 2:48 pm

The local strongman is not necessarily the option the Third Imperium looks for. As mentioned earlier, its main interest is a prosperous and peaceful world that commits itself to the rule and specifically the laws of the Imperium. As such, local strongmen feature problems that might make them unattractive: they sow dissent, if "autocracy" or "dictatorship" do not express the traditional political culture of the world. And strongmen have a tendency to deal with internal problems, i. e. threats to their personal power, with violence against their own people of others. The former leads to more strife, the latter to war with neighbours. Both threatens to violate Imperial peace.
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Re: Hypothetical situation

Postby Sigtrygg » Sun Nov 08, 2020 1:26 pm

But the Imperium can, and will, intervene sans warrant if the leader's regime has been proven to be responsible for war crimes, such as concentration camps, possible mass murder and human trafficking. Those crimes are covered under Imperial law, and in that respect the Imperium would intervene, en masse, hunting down and detaining every single trooper responsible for carrying out those crimes, no matter how far in the Imperium they run to.
Again not necessarily.
Yes, necessarily. There are articles of Imperium Law which forbid war crimes and slavery.
They could even authorise themselves to breach whatever barricades the fugitive leader has put up outside his office, go in and haul said disgraced dictator out by the ankles, if necessary.
The Imperium would be forced to intervene if the leader is guilty of tax evasion, and unable even to disclose his own tax returns. That, and trafficked kids and concentration camps.

Yeah, they'd intervene.
If there was such a hypothetical situation in the Third Imperium.
You appear to see the Imperium as 'good guys' - they are not.
When you're playing in the Third Imperium, they are. They have laws, society, education, and protect vulnerable populations. At least in MWM's vision of the Imperium. It's just everybody else laying on dark overtones where they really aren't.
"The local Duke"
... you are missing the point of the leader not being a Duke, but an elected President - a civilian, not a Noble.

If the Imperium can take the planet off the list of Amber Zones with a small squad of imperial Marines, a breaching pod and a set of handcuffs, they'll consider it to be worth the expense of the fuel to get them down to the planet and back up again. Once a planet's been Green Zoned once again, they can open the place up to trade, which means yaay lovely tax revenues, so it's nothing personal. Just business.
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Re: Hypothetical situation

Postby Condottiere » Sun Nov 08, 2020 1:27 pm

The planet could be the subsector's major industrial powerhouse, that supplies the vast majority of it's industrial goods.

The vast network of surveillance devices and communications monitoring is to ensure continued social harmony, while some minorities have been quarantined in public housing, to provide access for vocational schooling.
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Re: Hypothetical situation

Postby Linwood » Sun Nov 08, 2020 1:52 pm

Sigtrygg wrote:
Sun Nov 08, 2020 1:26 pm
alex_greene wrote:
Sun Nov 08, 2020 12:05 pm
The planetary population could ask for the Imperium to put out a warrant for the ex-leader's arrest, if the leader has a proven record of criminal activities, corruption and felony crimes, including assaults with a special category rider. And if it can be proven that the election had been rigged by electronic electoral interfetence from the Zhodani Tozjabr, there could be charges of treason.
And the local duke will ignore such a request otherwise he would get bogged down in dealing with local world politics that the Imperium couldn't care less about.
One exception to this would be piracy. If the opposition could provide evidence that members of the ex-president's administration were profiting from piracy pr related criminal conspiracies, it's very likely that the Imperium may issue a warrant. The PCs might be sent in covertly to look for that evidence if those charges are alleged, or perhaps to follow up on evidence provided by the opposition 9or other sources);

Or they could be hired by a local noble for the same tasks (to embarrass a rival or maybe just to reduce losses to their own operations). Or they might be hired to cover up connections that noble has to the pirate ring before an imperial investigator stumbles across them....
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Re: Hypothetical situation

Postby alex_greene » Sun Nov 08, 2020 1:57 pm

Off topic, speaking as a mod, I screwed up. Sorry, Sigtrygg. I'm blind as a bat today. Pushed the wrong buttons.
Now exercising diplomacy and withdrawing from this topic.
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Re: Hypothetical situation

Postby Sigtrygg » Sun Nov 08, 2020 2:18 pm

Yes, necessarily. There are articles of Imperium Law which forbid war crimes and slavery.
And I can give you canonical examples of where the Imperium ignores its own rules.
The Imperium would be forced to intervene if the leader is guilty of tax evasion, and unable even to disclose his own tax returns. That, and trafficked kids and concentration camps.

Yeah, they'd intervene.
They would only intervene if Imperial taxes have not been paid, not local. And again I can give you examples of the Imperium locking people up with no trial or due process, kidnapping families including kids and holding them in 'facilities', and then there are those rather nice camps they keep lots of people in...
When you're playing in the Third Imperium, they are. They have laws, society, education, and protect vulnerable populations. At least in MWM's vision of the Imperium. It's just everybody else laying on dark overtones where they really aren't.
I think you need to go and re-read the CT early adventures up to and including the Traveller Adventure, and also his novel Agent of the Imperium. The Imperium certainly are not 'the good guys'.


... you are missing the point of the leader not being a Duke, but an elected President - a civilian, not a Noble.
No, I am not missing that point at all. When I am referring to the local duke I am talking about what the local head of Imperial authority would do in the hypothetical situation presented of el presidente being a wrong un
If the Imperium can take the planet off the list of Amber Zones with a small squad of imperial Marines, a breaching pod and a set of handcuffs, they'll consider it to be worth the expense of the fuel to get them down to the planet and back up again. Once a planet's been Green Zoned once again, they can open the place up to trade, which means yaay lovely tax revenues, so it's nothing personal. Just business.
Now that I agree with completely :)
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Re: Hypothetical situation

Postby Sigtrygg » Sun Nov 08, 2020 2:19 pm

alex_greene wrote:
Sun Nov 08, 2020 1:57 pm
Off topic, speaking as a mod, I screwed up. Sorry, Sigtrygg. I'm blind as a bat today. Pushed the wrong buttons.
Now exercising diplomacy and withdrawing from this topic.
No worries I think I can still reply to your post :)

Don't leave the discussion. it is an interesting topic, and people do have different views about the nature of their Imperium :)

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