no FTL communications seems a bit gamey

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briansommers
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no FTL communications seems a bit gamey

Postby briansommers » Mon Jul 06, 2020 6:36 pm

So we can travel in FTL but we can't communicate FTL

that comes across to me as a gamey mechanic because well let's throw a wrench in here and do this.

It seems odd to me that if we can figure out FTL travel we should "easily" come up with a way to figure out comm FTL.

Can anyone help me understand the why behind this rule better? So it won't come across as something forced because it makes for a more interesting "story" or whatever.
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Re: no FTL communications seems a bit gamey

Postby Sigtrygg » Mon Jul 06, 2020 6:51 pm

You can communicate ftl - you just need to send a message via a jump ship. The message gets there a lot sooner than a laser beam would.

Speed of communication being equal to the speed of travel is the way it has been for most of human history.

The main reason is if you do something a bit naughty in a system you can stay ahead of the police.

If the police can ftl radio ahead then you can never escape your skulduggery.
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Re: no FTL communications seems a bit gamey

Postby briansommers » Mon Jul 06, 2020 7:11 pm

ahhhh... I meant to say faster than FTL comms
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Brian S
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Re: no FTL communications seems a bit gamey

Postby Condottiere » Mon Jul 06, 2020 7:23 pm

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Linwood
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Re: no FTL communications seems a bit gamey

Postby Linwood » Mon Jul 06, 2020 11:41 pm

A gravitic FTL comm like in the Honorverse might fit MGT2 ‘physics’. That would get you FTL messaging locally (within a system) but not system-to-system.
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Re: no FTL communications seems a bit gamey

Postby paltrysum » Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:29 am

briansommers wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 6:36 pm
Can anyone help me understand the why behind this rule better? So it won't come across as something forced because it makes for a more interesting "story" or whatever.
Simply put, the only method which we—in the Traveller universe—have discovered how to transport matter faster than light is jump. Jump transports matter (a starship of 100 displacement tonnes or more by the rules as written) but not energy, so you cannot transmit data unless it is contained in a ship.

This limitation is a key part of the game and is the reason that the Imperium (and Aslan Hierate for that matter) benefit from a feudal structure, wherein a central authority must rely on appointed subordinates to maintain the tenets of the government. It gives the game its "age of sail" feel, in which you have to actually travel to other stars to know what's going on; you cannot simply radio your pals who live a parsec or more away.
My published Traveller adventures on DriveThruRPG:
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/browse.php ... %20Griffen
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Re: no FTL communications seems a bit gamey

Postby Sigtrygg » Tue Jul 07, 2020 8:10 am

Linwood wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 11:41 pm
A gravitic FTL comm like in the Honorverse might fit MGT2 ‘physics’. That would get you FTL messaging locally (within a system) but not system-to-system.
Except gravitational interactions travel at c too. See basic general theory of relativity. EM waves travel at c, gravity travels at c.
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Re: no FTL communications seems a bit gamey

Postby Reynard » Tue Jul 07, 2020 11:41 am

This sounds familiar to what the Star Trek franchise did with both FTL flight and communications. In the original series, it took days and weeks to get to a location and even subspace communication meant ships and worlds were out of contact for long periods and they had to rely on their own decisions on immediate matters. Ship captains were legendary for their command ability on the fly and with resources available at the moment. The most recent movies made warp, subspace and even transporters instantaneous over dozens of parsecs. Took the mystery out of life when your crew can phone home to get the parents to send the cavalry in minutes.
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Re: no FTL communications seems a bit gamey

Postby Gentleman John » Tue Jul 07, 2020 3:26 pm

Marc Miller originally wanted Traveller to have an 'Age of Sail' feel to it, and decided to emulate this by having the main method of communications be limited to the speed of the fastest courier. You can change this if you want, but it will significantly alter the way the game runs, compared to Traveller canon.
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Re: no FTL communications seems a bit gamey

Postby Condottiere » Tue Jul 07, 2020 6:45 pm

Before you get disappointed, quantum physics may have the solution. Quantum entanglement, as we’ve covered in the past, shows that paired particles mimic their behavior over potentially infinite distances.It must be said that distance isn’t the only dimension that is seemingly ignored by quantum entanglement. Research conducted by many different physicists has revealed that particle pairs can communicate with one another along the TIMELINE!

Let me just re-iterate that… not only is it theoretically possible to change the state of one particle on Earth, and another 3,000 light years away, but you can actually teleport to that particle 3,000 light years away, 3,000 years ago… or at least, that is what the research suggests is ultimately possible, in theory.

https://futurism.com/know-your-solar-system-the-sun
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Re: no FTL communications seems a bit gamey

Postby Sigtrygg » Tue Jul 07, 2020 7:07 pm

If you learn anything about quantum entangled particles beyond popular science misquotes you would find that quantum entanglement can not be used to transfer information faster than light.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/startswith ... 1ed8b14d5d

https://www.forbes.com/sites/chadorzel/ ... d12b413a1e
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Re: no FTL communications seems a bit gamey

Postby Condottiere » Tue Jul 07, 2020 7:16 pm

That must be why they're sending the information into the past.
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Re: no FTL communications seems a bit gamey

Postby Subzero001 » Wed Jul 08, 2020 12:23 pm

Hello hivemind Just some food for thought..

“Ancient Technology Level: 19–21 a prototype ansible was made in secrets of the ancients MGT1st – a faster-than-light communication system. This ansible works on a higher level of jumpspace than the one accessible using conventional jump drives, allowing messages to be transmitted over tens of parsecs instantaneously. Pg 12 of Secrets section”

“Ancient Technology Level: 26+ At this level of technology, teleportation portals are ubiquitous. Whole planetary systems can be crossed with a single footstep. While some ships still have their own jump drives, it is more common to use interstellar gates to travel from system to system. The ansible network links the entire Ancient civilization together. Pg 13”

So from these two snippets we can conclude that there is or was faster than light communication in traveller at least in the Mongoose version. So same as the black globe technology if a crew could get a hold of these “Ansible’s” and get them to function or reverse engineer a cruder prototype who knows…
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Re: no FTL communications seems a bit gamey

Postby Sigtrygg » Wed Jul 08, 2020 1:38 pm

That ansible bit should never have made it past the secret squirrel society - sorry - inner circle group that is meant to vet all things Third Imperium.

One of MWM's big no nos for the setting is that there is absolutely no ftl communication possible, even with Ancient era or higher technology.
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Re: no FTL communications seems a bit gamey

Postby Linwood » Wed Jul 08, 2020 3:54 pm

Rumors of such tech might make for a wonderful MacGuffin for an mystery/espionage-focused Traveller campaign. With a discovery at some point that the tech never existed (a con or a false-flag op), that the proposed tech cannot work (gross misinterpretation, misinformation, or a seriously deluded proponent), or that it does something completely different (and very mad-science scary).

Could be fun!
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Re: no FTL communications seems a bit gamey

Postby AndrewW » Wed Jul 08, 2020 4:14 pm

Linwood wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 3:54 pm
Rumors of such tech might make for a wonderful MacGuffin for an mystery/espionage-focused Traveller campaign. With a discovery at some point that the tech never existed (a con or a false-flag op), that the proposed tech cannot work (gross misinterpretation, misinformation, or a seriously deluded proponent), or that it does something completely different (and very mad-science scary).
It works but you have to have the telepathy power to use it.
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Re: no FTL communications seems a bit gamey

Postby Sigtrygg » Wed Jul 08, 2020 4:54 pm

By the way. despite my earlier comment about the holy word of MWM :) there are two other examples of ftl communication in the Third Imperium setting - the Zhodani device that allows them to 'see' the future and the retconned version of the Empress Wave. Note that the original Empress Wave is a lightspeed phenomenon, while the retconned version travelling FTL allows for FTL communication.
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Re: no FTL communications seems a bit gamey

Postby Linwood » Wed Jul 08, 2020 5:30 pm

AndrewW wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 4:14 pm
Linwood wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 3:54 pm
Rumors of such tech might make for a wonderful MacGuffin for an mystery/espionage-focused Traveller campaign. With a discovery at some point that the tech never existed (a con or a false-flag op), that the proposed tech cannot work (gross misinterpretation, misinformation, or a seriously deluded proponent), or that it does something completely different (and very mad-science scary).
It works but you have to have the telepathy power to use it.
I could totally see that....
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Re: no FTL communications seems a bit gamey

Postby Condottiere » Wed Jul 08, 2020 6:15 pm

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