Turret questions

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snrdg121408
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Turret questions

Postby snrdg121408 » Sat Mar 21, 2020 8:18 pm

Hello all,

I'm starting a new topic thread for turrets rather than continue the discussion going on over at Implications of the Firmpoint to Turret conversion rule at viewtopic.php?f=89&t=122012.

Question 1. Can turrets use Armored Bulkheads, Radiation Shielding, and/or Hardened options from Spacecraft Options chapter?

Question 2. Can a weapon on a fixed mount be hardened?

Question 3. Can a pop-up fixed mount use the Armored Bulkhead option?

Adding new material

Question 4. Can the weapons with power requirements be hardened?

Question 5. If turrets can be hardened would the weapons be covered?
snrdg121408 (aka Tom R)
AnotherDilbert
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Re: Turret questions

Postby AnotherDilbert » Sat Mar 21, 2020 8:43 pm

snrdg121408 wrote: Question 1. Can turrets use Armored Bulkheads, Radiation Shielding, and/or Hardened options from Spacecraft Options chapter?
Yes.

Radiation Shielding protects the entire ship (or rather it's crew), not any specific system.

snrdg121408 wrote: Question 2. Can a weapon on a fixed mount be hardened?
Yes, if it uses energy.

snrdg121408 wrote: Question 3. Can a pop-up fixed mount use the Armored Bulkhead option?
Sure, why not?

snrdg121408 wrote: Question 4. Can the weapons with power requirements be hardened?
Yes.

snrdg121408 wrote: Question 5. If turrets can be hardened would the weapons be covered?
Not automatically, you must increase the cost of both to harden both.
snrdg121408
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Re: Turret questions

Postby snrdg121408 » Sat Mar 21, 2020 9:50 pm

Hi AnotherDilbert,
AnotherDilbert wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 8:43 pm
snrdg121408 wrote: Question 1. Can turrets use Armored Bulkheads, Radiation Shielding, and/or Hardened options from Spacecraft Options chapter?
Yes.

Radiation Shielding protects the entire ship (or rather it's crew), not any specific system.

Oops, I am making an index of material I search for in my PDF books and I labeled the Space Station entry as Spacecraft Options.
snrdg121408 wrote: Question 2. Can a weapon on a fixed mount be hardened?
Yes, if it uses energy.
Dang the web gremlins for stealing the text, I could have sworn I typed when using energy weapons.
snrdg121408 wrote: Question 3. Can a pop-up fixed mount use the Armored Bulkhead option?
Sure, why not?
A fixed mount does not have any tonnage which in my opinion means it can not be armored. I just wanted to make sure that by adding the pop-up mount that the fixed mount could be armored.
snrdg121408 wrote: Question 4. Can the weapons with power requirements be hardened?
Yes.
Man, I really asked a really obivious question that I already knew the answer for. Made I should have taken a nap.
snrdg121408 wrote: Question 5. If turrets can be hardened would the weapons be covered?
Not automatically, you must increase the cost of both to harden both.
I was leaning towards both having to be hardened separately.
snrdg121408 (aka Tom R)
Condottiere
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Re: Turret questions

Postby Condottiere » Sun Mar 22, 2020 10:27 am

You harden the entire weapon system; whether individual weapon systems embedded in the same turret or fixed mount can be separately hardened or armoured, it's probably circumstantial, since these are usually designed as modular.
snrdg121408
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Re: Turret questions

Postby snrdg121408 » Sun Mar 22, 2020 7:49 pm

Hi Condottiere,
Condottiere wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 10:27 am
You harden the entire weapon system; whether individual weapon systems embedded in the same turret or fixed mount can be separately hardened or armoured, it's probably circumstantial, since these are usually designed as modular.
Yes, there are two modules (1) the turret and (2) one the five standard weapons systems or the four additional High Tech systems. The turret has both tonnage and power which allows it to, in my opinion, use armored bulkheads and be hardened. None of weapons on the table take up space which, again in my opinion cannot use the armored bulkhead option. Those weapons that have power requirements can be hardened, especially when they are in fixed mounts.
snrdg121408 (aka Tom R)
snrdg121408
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Re: Turret questions

Postby snrdg121408 » Mon Mar 23, 2020 10:48 pm

Hi all,

On the Implications of the Firmpoints to Turret Conversions the discussion changed to cover the missile and sand canister capacity carried in the turret.

MgT HG 2e p. 23/PDF 24

A ship has one Hardpoint for every full 100 tons of its hull.
Hardpoints Table: Fixed mount uses 1 Hardpoint and a turret uses 1 Hardpoint.

MgT HG 2e p. 24/PDF 25 Mount Table:
Fixed mount: TL -; Power 0; Tons 0; Cost MCr0.1
Single Turret: TL 7; Power 1; Tons 1; Cost MCr0.2
Double Turret: TL 8; Power 1; Tons 1; Cost MCr0.5
Triple Turret: TL 9; Power 1; Tons 1; Cost MCr1

MgT HG 2e p. 67/PDF 68 High Technology
Quad Turret: TL 12; Power 2; Tons 1; Cost MCr2

MgT HG 2e p. 25/PDF 26 Turrets and Fixed Mounts provides the following descriptions:

"Missile Rack: Though missile racks require ammunition and the warheads take time to reach distant targets, they can be very powerful weapons and, when a range of warheads is available, is very versatile to. Each missile rack holds 12 missiles (missiles on Firmpoints hold four missiles). The missile rack here is equipped with standard missiles."

Per MgT HG 2e p. 29/PDF 30 Missiles: "...Twelve missiles consume 1 ton."

"Sandcaster: Though mounted in turrets and of use against boarders, the sandcaster is primarily a defensive weapon used to protect ships from laser weapons. Each sand caster holds 12 sand canisters and cost Cr25000 to refill."

Per MgT HG 2e p. 31/PDF 32 Sandcasters: "...Twenty sand canisters consume 1 ton."

The question was asked on Implications of the Firmpoints to Turret Conversions:
Question 6. How can a 1 ton turret hold 1 ton of missiles?

One reply referenced CT LBB 2 1977/1981 p. 15 under Starship Construction Main Compartment:
"F. Armaments: Any ship may have one hardpoint per 100 tons of ship. Designation of a hardpoint requires no tonnage, and costs Cr 100,000. Hardpoints may be left unused if desired.
One turret may be attached to each hardpoint on the ship. When it is attached, one ton for fire control must be allocated."

CT LBB 5 HG there is no mention that a 1 ton listed for the turret in the Turret Weapons table is associated with fire control. In CT Striker Book 3 fire control is a separate item from the turret. In my PDF MT Referee's Manual my search for fire control returned three hits on p. 94/PDF 98 for the spinal mount. TNE FF&S points the designer to see the Fire Control Chapter, Section 14. T4 Core Rulebook p. 112/PDF 114 has a Fire Control Rating Table and there is no tonnage or cost requirement listed. T4 Book 2 has Master Fire Directors that per the table on p. 100/PDF 102 has a separate mass, volume, area, power, price and crew requirements from the weapon systems. T4 FF&S also have separate fire control systems.

MgT HG 2e p. 42/PDF 43 does mention a fire control computer and any other reference is associated with computer software. Looking at just the information from HG 2e I firmly believe that the turret requires 1 ton of space of the ship's hull. The missile racks have no tonnage requirements, however a full load of 12 missiles require 1 ton of space that supposedly fits inside the 1 ton turret.

At this time it appears that the 12 missiles of 20 canisters require 1 ton of space has been overlooked when loading the turret's magazine.

CT LBB 2 1977/1981has the following details
Weaponry pp. 16-17
Missile racks: are launchers for small anti-ship missiles. The typical missile is homing type which constantly seeks the target ship, ultimately being destroyed by the target’s defenses, or exploding and doing damage to it. Such missiles may also be converted to planetary surface bombs, or to surveillance drones (mechanical and electronic skill should apply in such cases. Individual missiles weigh about 50 kg, and cost Cr 5,000 each. [pp. 16-17]
Sandcasters: are defensive weapons; they dispense small particles which counteract the strength of lasers and protect the ship. The specific particles used are similar to ablat personnel armor replacement canisters of this special sand weigh 50 kg and cost Cr 400.

Starship Combat/Ordnance Launch: p. 30
Reloading: Each launcher (sand or missile) has an inherent capacity for three missiles or canisters. This means that a triple missile turret with three missile launchers has a total of 9 missiles in immediate position. Such missiles are fully selectable by the gunner for type.

The CT LBB 2 turrets can only handle 3 missiles or canisters per missile launcher or sandcaster.

Then there is JTAS 21 with the Special Supplement 3 Missiles in Traveller that indicates that the turret appears to hold the three CT LBB 2 reloads plus an additional 12.

Going back the MgT HG 2e we know that 12 missiles and 20 canisters consume 1 ton of space.

Having a load out of 12 missiles requires 1 ton of space somewhere which means that a turret requires more than 1 ton of space when loaded with missiles or that the missiles are stowed in a separate 1 ton space. The space/magazine is basically a cargo hold so it would only require space without a monetary cost.
snrdg121408 (aka Tom R)

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