Friction-powered plane

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phavoc
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Friction-powered plane

Postby phavoc » Sun Mar 15, 2020 1:55 am

A designer has proposed a plant that uses friction to recharge batteries while in-flight. It's only theoretical right now, but an interesting concept and one that could be added to your game.

https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/forget- ... 02567.html
AnotherDilbert
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Re: Friction-powered plane

Postby AnotherDilbert » Sun Mar 15, 2020 8:35 am

Sigtrygg
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Re: Friction-powered plane

Postby Sigtrygg » Sun Mar 15, 2020 10:08 am

It would only recover a fraction of the energy lost due to friction, so overall energy will be lost over time. Not to mention you would need another power source to get it up to the speed at which friction would be able to generate enough energy to even partially recharge any batteries. As for directly powering electric motors forget it, you can not take kinetic energy away from the plane for free to power the engines, the plane slows down because it is losing kinetic energy...

The laws of thermodynamics are safe for another day - from scientifically illiterate journalists and inventors with no grasp of physics.
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Re: Friction-powered plane

Postby Baldo » Sun Mar 15, 2020 10:51 am

AnotherDilbert wrote:
Sun Mar 15, 2020 8:35 am
Perpetuum mobile
Orffyreus

Why not? Guglielmo Marconi extracted gold from seawater (see here and the "Cosa le ha lasciato suo padre?" question here), maybe Bessler too discovered something incredible, who knows? :)
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Re: Friction-powered plane

Postby Pyromancer » Sun Mar 15, 2020 2:35 pm

Don't today's planes often use airflow powered generators as backup power plants? This friction thing could be used in that role, if it is lighter/cheaper.
phavoc
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Re: Friction-powered plane

Postby phavoc » Sun Mar 15, 2020 5:17 pm

It seems far-fetched, I will grant you that. What we don't know, beyond what is alluded to, is just how much power it could generate, and how much power is required for the engines. If the former is greater than the latter, then it would be possible for the plane to only need to rely upon it's onboard batteries for when it is not at cruising altitude (or high/fast enough to begin generating power).

It's NOT a perpetual motion proposition. It's living within physical parameters (the theory of it at least).

As for gold from seawater, that's not magic. It's just separating the water from the minerals suspended in it.
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Re: Friction-powered plane

Postby AnotherDilbert » Sun Mar 15, 2020 5:23 pm

Baldo wrote: ... maybe Bessler too discovered something incredible, who knows?
Sure, and people might be able to fly by flapping their arms.

The concept of entropy is a well-tested physical principle. If that is wrong most of physics has to be redone.

That is not theoretically impossible, of course, just exceedingly improbable.

Baldo wrote: Guglielmo Marconi extracted gold from seawater
Entirely unsurprising since sea water contains trace amounts of most elements. There is a lot of seawater so the total amounts of dissolved minerals is huge, it's just a question of concentrating them. It's entirely doable, just uneconomical when the same minerals can be found in much higher concentrations in the ground.
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Re: Friction-powered plane

Postby AnotherDilbert » Sun Mar 15, 2020 5:46 pm

phavoc wrote: It's NOT a perpetual motion proposition. It's living within physical parameters (the theory of it at least).
Of course it is a classic perpetual motion machine, it even suggests perpetual motion; being able to fly without adding external energy.

What seems to be suggested here is that the engines drive the aircraft that drive the power generator that drives the plane. Each step is less than 100% efficient, so you end up with a lot less energy to drive the engines than you used to drive the engines, i.e. it won't work.


Similar ideas keep popping up, so have become a joke:
https://www.cartoonstock.com/cartoonvie ... ef=cman930
Last edited by AnotherDilbert on Sun Mar 15, 2020 6:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Friction-powered plane

Postby Geir » Sun Mar 15, 2020 5:56 pm

AnotherDilbert wrote:
Sun Mar 15, 2020 5:46 pm
phavoc wrote: It's NOT a perpetual motion proposition. It's living within physical parameters (the theory of it at least).
Of course it is a classic perpetual motion machine, it even suggests perpetual motion; being able to fly without adding external energy.

What seems to be suggested here is that the engines drive the aircraft that drive the power generator that drives the plane. Each step is less than 100% efficient, so you end up with a lot less energy to drive the engines than you used to drive the engines, i.e. it won't work.
It's not that it won't work, it's just that it works like regenerative braking on a Toyota Prius. It will help increase the range of the vehicle by reacquiring some of the energy, but it no way gets you anything for free.
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Re: Friction-powered plane

Postby AnotherDilbert » Sun Mar 15, 2020 6:10 pm

Geir wrote:
Sun Mar 15, 2020 5:56 pm
It's not that it won't work, it's just that it works like regenerative braking on a Toyota Prius. It will help increase the range of the vehicle by reacquiring some of the energy, but it no way gets you anything for free.
That is not what was suggested in the linked article:
What the Warsaw-based designer came up with is potentially revolutionary. Eather One uses friction between the air and high speeds of the jet as its primary source of renewable, on-demand energy.

While it looks like a jet from the future, the primary difference between Eather One and contemporary hybrid aircraft are the triboelectric nanogenerators in the wings. The nanogenerators convert mechanical energy directly into electrical energy. The aircraft does not need fuel tanks or large battery banks, since it will generate electricity from air molecules in the troposphere and stratosphere.

Note that the principle is different: Regenerative braking transforms some of the energy lost during braking, the article suggests using the regenerative brakes continually to drive the vehicle, i.e. having the regenerative brakes generating more energy than needed to overcome the braking, i.e. classic perpetual motion.
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Re: Friction-powered plane

Postby Geir » Sun Mar 15, 2020 6:22 pm

AnotherDilbert wrote:
Sun Mar 15, 2020 6:10 pm
Geir wrote:
Sun Mar 15, 2020 5:56 pm
It's not that it won't work, it's just that it works like regenerative braking on a Toyota Prius. It will help increase the range of the vehicle by reacquiring some of the energy, but it no way gets you anything for free.
That is not what was suggested in the linked article:
What the Warsaw-based designer came up with is potentially revolutionary. Eather One uses friction between the air and high speeds of the jet as its primary source of renewable, on-demand energy.

While it looks like a jet from the future, the primary difference between Eather One and contemporary hybrid aircraft are the triboelectric nanogenerators in the wings. The nanogenerators convert mechanical energy directly into electrical energy. The aircraft does not need fuel tanks or large battery banks, since it will generate electricity from air molecules in the troposphere and stratosphere.

Note that the principle is different: Regenerative braking transforms some of the energy lost during braking, the article suggests using the regenerative brakes continually to drive the vehicle, i.e. having the regenerative brakes generating more energy than needed to overcome the braking, i.e. classic perpetual motion.
Agreed. That's crap. Never going to work. Even Traveller M-Drive makes more sense (sort of).
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Re: Friction-powered plane

Postby Condottiere » Mon Mar 16, 2020 6:56 pm

Maybe a really dense atmosphere.

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