Is the Empress Marava-class supposed to have a fuel scoop?

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Hakkonen
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Is the Empress Marava-class supposed to have a fuel scoop?

Postby Hakkonen » Sun Mar 01, 2020 10:10 pm

Yay, I'm actually playing Traveller! Our group has inherited an Empress Marava-class far trader, and while High Guard lists the design as including a fuel processor (40 tons/day), it doesn't show a fuel scoop. Is this an oversight, or does it mean that the Empress Marava can refuel from water sources but not gas giants?
AndrewW
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Re: Is the Empress Marava-class supposed to have a fuel scoop?

Postby AndrewW » Sun Mar 01, 2020 11:02 pm

A fuel processor allows a ship to purchase unrefined fuel and refine it itself.

But any streamlined ship has fuel scoops, they are included with the streamlining.
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Re: Is the Empress Marava-class supposed to have a fuel scoop?

Postby paltrysum » Mon Mar 02, 2020 3:19 am

Hakkonen wrote:
Sun Mar 01, 2020 10:10 pm
Yay, I'm actually playing Traveller! Our group has inherited an Empress Marava-class far trader, and while High Guard lists the design as including a fuel processor (40 tons/day), it doesn't show a fuel scoop. Is this an oversight, or does it mean that the Empress Marava can refuel from water sources but not gas giants?
It should say that it does – it was probably an oversight that they left it out; however, as AndrewW pointed out, all streamlined ships get fuel scoops free of charge,
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Re: Is the Empress Marava-class supposed to have a fuel scoop?

Postby AndrewW » Mon Mar 02, 2020 3:45 am

paltrysum wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 3:19 am
It should say that it does – it was probably an oversight that they left it out; however, as AndrewW pointed out, all streamlined ships get fuel scoops free of charge,
It is included in the streamlining, doesn't really need a separate listing.
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Re: Is the Empress Marava-class supposed to have a fuel scoop?

Postby paltrysum » Mon Mar 02, 2020 4:43 am

AndrewW wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 3:45 am
It is included in the streamlining, doesn't really need a separate listing.
Here's the problem: Sometimes it is present in the description and sometimes it isn't. If readers become accustomed to seeing it, they can become confused when it isn't there. Logically you're right, but design-wise, it's better to be consistent.
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Re: Is the Empress Marava-class supposed to have a fuel scoop?

Postby Ursus Maior » Mon Mar 02, 2020 9:57 am

File it under the big pile of "we need a new (PDF) edition / printing of High Guard. We'll commence playing on Friday, 13th of March and I will not use ships as printed at all. I recalculate each and every ship by hand, even the errors collected here in the forum are not a complete list. I just did the Safari ship and it uses the wrong tonnage (and thus price, too) for the j-drive. And of course almost every ship ist listed at 100% of the calculated price and not at 90% for being a common design.

The good part is: Most ships have more cargo available than printed, so that's a nice bonus for players trying to stay legal. :D
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Re: Is the Empress Marava-class supposed to have a fuel scoop?

Postby AnotherDilbert » Mon Mar 02, 2020 10:22 am

Ursus Maior wrote: I just did the Safari ship and it uses the wrong tonnage (and thus price, too) for the j-drive.
15 Dt and MCr 22.5 looks correct to me?

200 Dton × 2.5% × 2 + 5 = 15 Dton.

See thread Updated High Guard Ships.
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Re: Is the Empress Marava-class supposed to have a fuel scoop?

Postby Reynard » Mon Mar 02, 2020 12:10 pm

Just so we know, High Guard in the Fuel scoop entry: "(streamlined ships have fuel scoops built-in automatically)".
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Re: Is the Empress Marava-class supposed to have a fuel scoop?

Postby phavoc » Mon Mar 02, 2020 1:41 pm

paltrysum wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 4:43 am
AndrewW wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 3:45 am
It is included in the streamlining, doesn't really need a separate listing.
Here's the problem: Sometimes it is present in the description and sometimes it isn't. If readers become accustomed to seeing it, they can become confused when it isn't there. Logically you're right, but design-wise, it's better to be consistent.
To paltysum's point, standardization is key for new players to learn. Not everyone who picks up the game knows the rules from X versions ago. And, since MGT decided to take out the ship building rules from the CRB and place them in HG, they should have realized that by doing so the "it's in the rules" line was going to fall flat on it's face for situations like this. Each book needs to stand or fall on it's own merits unless it is otherwise designed (such as a supplement) to not do so. CRB was designed to be the one book you could get and instantly start playing.

On the other side of the argument, it IS stated as such in the rules... but if you don't have that book then you'd never know that rule.
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Re: Is the Empress Marava-class supposed to have a fuel scoop?

Postby Ursus Maior » Mon Mar 02, 2020 2:18 pm

AnotherDilbert wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 10:22 am
Ursus Maior wrote: I just did the Safari ship and it uses the wrong tonnage (and thus price, too) for the j-drive.
15 Dt and MCr 22.5 looks correct to me?

200 Dton × 2.5% × 2 + 5 = 15 Dton.

See thread Updated High Guard Ships.
Hmm, as of today, I cannot recreate the error I spotted. I retract my statement. I came up with just 10 dtons the other day. Maybe I forgot the ominous +5 dtons one should add?
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Re: Is the Empress Marava-class supposed to have a fuel scoop?

Postby Old School » Mon Mar 02, 2020 3:06 pm

For any ship for which it matters in my campaign, I do at least a little tweaking. Not only so they fit the rules, but also to attempt correct any obvious design inefficiencies resulting from fitting CT ships into MgT2 design rules.
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Re: Is the Empress Marava-class supposed to have a fuel scoop?

Postby Reynard » Mon Mar 02, 2020 8:51 pm

Just to make matters worst, remember to find a way to add a couple tons for that first free airlock plus some tonnage if you want a ship's locker. I've made it a point to list those tonnages as I design new ships or making corrections to iconic designs usually swiping some cargo space.
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Re: Is the Empress Marava-class supposed to have a fuel scoop?

Postby Geir » Tue Mar 03, 2020 11:59 pm

Reynard wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 8:51 pm
Just to make matters worst, remember to find a way to add a couple tons for that first free airlock plus some tonnage if you want a ship's locker. I've made it a point to list those tonnages as I design new ships or making corrections to iconic designs usually swiping some cargo space.
I just assume that first airlock and the ship's locker gets eaten out of the bridge tonnage, just like corridors get eaten out of stateroom size.
As for additional airlocks... I can't even get a good read on whether 1 per 100 tons or 1 per 500 tons is included:

HG p. 22 "A ship may have one airlock for every 100 tons or part of. A standard airlock is capable of cycling two humans per minute between the ship’s interior and exterior, or vice versa. Additional airlocks may be added using the system in the spacecraft options chapter."

CRB p. 143: "A ship has at least one airlock per 500 tons. The average airlock is large enough for three people in vacc suits to pass through."

The rules don't even agree on the size of the airlock (well, "standard" and "average" might not be the same thing.) Plus the use of the word "may" in HG is subject to... subjective interpretation, to say the least.
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Re: Is the Empress Marava-class supposed to have a fuel scoop?

Postby AndrewW » Wed Mar 04, 2020 12:15 am

Geir wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 11:59 pm
HG p. 22 "A ship may have one airlock for every 100 tons or part of. A standard airlock is capable of cycling two humans per minute between the ship’s interior and exterior, or vice versa. Additional airlocks may be added using the system in the spacecraft options chapter."

CRB p. 143: "A ship has at least one airlock per 500 tons. The average airlock is large enough for three people in vacc suits to pass through."
May have but not required. Get one per 100 tons for free. Common to have one per 500 tons on the ship, but may have more without having to invest in an additional airlock.
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Re: Is the Empress Marava-class supposed to have a fuel scoop?

Postby phavoc » Wed Mar 04, 2020 12:22 am

Geir wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 11:59 pm
Reynard wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 8:51 pm
Just to make matters worst, remember to find a way to add a couple tons for that first free airlock plus some tonnage if you want a ship's locker. I've made it a point to list those tonnages as I design new ships or making corrections to iconic designs usually swiping some cargo space.
I just assume that first airlock and the ship's locker gets eaten out of the bridge tonnage, just like corridors get eaten out of stateroom size.
As for additional airlocks... I can't even get a good read on whether 1 per 100 tons or 1 per 500 tons is included:

HG p. 22 "A ship may have one airlock for every 100 tons or part of. A standard airlock is capable of cycling two humans per minute between the ship’s interior and exterior, or vice versa. Additional airlocks may be added using the system in the spacecraft options chapter."

CRB p. 143: "A ship has at least one airlock per 500 tons. The average airlock is large enough for three people in vacc suits to pass through."

The rules don't even agree on the size of the airlock (well, "standard" and "average" might not be the same thing.) Plus the use of the word "may" in HG is subject to... subjective interpretation, to say the least.
As a ship gets bigger, and also depending on if it's civilian or military, the primary airlocks will get bigger to accommodate more personnel and/or cargo (larger ships will also be more likely to invest tonnage in cargo airlocks, or at least cargo spaces that open externally).

It's better to look at the mission of the ship rather than try to follow semi-conflicting rules. Does it make sense for a 500 ton military vessel to have 5 airlocks? Or does it only need a port/starboard, and maybe an aft cargo airlock? Follow the common-sense rule and don't worry about the book rule.
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Re: Is the Empress Marava-class supposed to have a fuel scoop?

Postby Geir » Wed Mar 04, 2020 12:30 am

AndrewW wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 12:15 am
Geir wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 11:59 pm
HG p. 22 "A ship may have one airlock for every 100 tons or part of. A standard airlock is capable of cycling two humans per minute between the ship’s interior and exterior, or vice versa. Additional airlocks may be added using the system in the spacecraft options chapter."

CRB p. 143: "A ship has at least one airlock per 500 tons. The average airlock is large enough for three people in vacc suits to pass through."
May have but not required. Get one per 100 tons for free. Common to have one per 500 tons on the ship, but may have more without having to invest in an additional airlock.
Great!
I'm fine with that answer. The problem I've had recently, with JTAS designs, especially, is the tendency to add "additional airlocks" when they don't even add up to 1 per 100. So I'll gladly take your ruling and run with it. That's what I've been assuming all along. Obviously, if someone wants a giant cargo lock, that's a different issue.
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Re: Is the Empress Marava-class supposed to have a fuel scoop?

Postby Geir » Wed Mar 04, 2020 12:39 am

phavoc wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 12:22 am

As a ship gets bigger, and also depending on if it's civilian or military, the primary airlocks will get bigger to accommodate more personnel and/or cargo (larger ships will also be more likely to invest tonnage in cargo airlocks, or at least cargo spaces that open externally).

It's better to look at the mission of the ship rather than try to follow semi-conflicting rules. Does it make sense for a 500 ton military vessel to have 5 airlocks? Or does it only need a port/starboard, and maybe an aft cargo airlock? Follow the common-sense rule and don't worry about the book rule.
My point isn't that a 2,000 ton ship needs 20 airlocks- it likely doesn't and I don't care. My issue is that in, for example, a 2000 ton ship with fewer than 20 actual airlocks has in its design 3 "additional airlocks" at 2 tons a piece. I don't think that's necessary at all. So I just wanted a clarification. The clearer rule should be: you can add 1 personnel-sized airlock per 100 tons and not have to allocate space or cost for it (or alternatively, you can have 2 tons of every 100 be airlock space and that's included in the hull cost/design- or maybe half that, since most airlocks are shown as 2 squares, which is 1 ton). I wasn't sure if the Highguard statement changed that to 1 per 500 or if it was actually the rule that every airlock past the first needed to be added.
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Re: Is the Empress Marava-class supposed to have a fuel scoop?

Postby Condottiere » Wed Mar 04, 2020 6:05 am

Tonnage for airlocks should be declared for the current edition; if you have one airlock per hundred tonnes, that's two percent from total displacement, that can't be considered part of whatever overhead you want to assign it to.

On the other hand, you could have a free airtight hatch per hundred tonnes, without an airlock: hatches would be considered part of the hull, with or without armour plating.
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Re: Is the Empress Marava-class supposed to have a fuel scoop?

Postby Reynard » Wed Mar 04, 2020 3:53 pm

Problem with an external airtight hatch is opening it evacuates a portion of the ship stopped only by bulkheads and internal hatches/irises. That's the reason for a purpose built airlock. Only time I see those external hatch design were Star Trek ships for receiving small craft and only open if a craft is attached. That might explain movement between a ship and craft held by docking clamps.

I know I saw that 100/500 tons of ship per airlock somewhere. Can't remember. Personally, I say you put in as many airlocks as needed, and cargo airlocks also count limited by what you're willing to pay in credits and displacement. You NEED at least one to get in and out other than through a docking space or hangar hatch.
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Re: Is the Empress Marava-class supposed to have a fuel scoop?

Postby Condottiere » Thu Mar 05, 2020 9:35 pm

The number and size of airlocks is not the issue, accounting in terms of tonnage and cost for them would be.

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