HG 2e Crew questions

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HG 2e Crew questions

Postby snrdg121408 » Sat Feb 29, 2020 12:22 am

Hi again all,

I know I have asked about crew sometime in the past approximately 12 years and as usual I have not located a thread that answers some questions.

A. In the Military Column the 1 medic is required per 120 crew.

1. In MgT what defines the ship's crew?

In the USN a carrier's crew does not include the embarked air wing or Marines.

B. In the military column 1 steward is required per 10 high or 100 middle passengers.

Who are high and middle passengers on a military vessel?

C. In the Commercial Column the Captain position is defined as usually the leading officer.

Reviewing both the Merchant Marine and Military operational/crew requirements a Captain is the leading officer responsible for all aspects of the ship. Further my searches have revealed that Merchant officers have some sort of insignia letting the passengers know who is in charge of what onboard.


3. Shouldn't hulls with at least two crew members have one designated by the title of captain?
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Re: HG 2e Crew questions

Postby AnotherDilbert » Sat Feb 29, 2020 1:44 am

snrdg121408 wrote: A. In the Military Column the 1 medic is required per 120 crew.

1. In MgT what defines the ship's crew?
Presumably everyone defined in the Determine crew section, including flight crew.

snrdg121408 wrote: B. In the military column 1 steward is required per 10 high or 100 middle passengers.

Who are high and middle passengers on a military vessel?
High and Mid passengers are well defined in the Spacecraft Operations chapter of the Core rules.

I guess normal naval ships don't carry passengers, but VIP transports may?

snrdg121408 wrote: C. In the Commercial Column the Captain position is defined as usually the leading officer.

3. Shouldn't hulls with at least two crew members have one designated by the title of captain?
Presumably all craft requires a ship's master, regardless of number of crew, but apparently only civilian ships with more than 20 crew, and hence specified officers, require a titled Captain.


I don't really think the crew table is intended to specify exact job titles, but more the approximate number of people normally considered necessary to operate the ship.
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Re: HG 2e Crew questions

Postby Old School » Sat Feb 29, 2020 2:11 am

I know Navy types like to look down on Marines, but to not factor them in when determining what level of medical care is needed seems a bit callous.
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Re: HG 2e Crew questions

Postby Condottiere » Sat Feb 29, 2020 2:47 am

Image

Stewards could be orderlies taking care of junior and senior officers' laundry, and running the wardroom.

As regards medical personnel, it;s usually dependent on access to comprehensive medical facilities and qualified personnel within a timeframe where treatment can still make a significant difference, and unless Five Kay medics are as competent as Two Kay doctors, and space travel permits immediate evacuation.

Of course, the option exists to flash freeze the patient.
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Re: HG 2e Crew questions

Postby AndrewW » Sat Feb 29, 2020 3:34 am

Old School wrote:
Sat Feb 29, 2020 2:11 am
I know Navy types like to look down on Marines, but to not factor them in when determining what level of medical care is needed seems a bit callous.
Or the marine contingent could have their own medics.
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Re: HG 2e Crew questions

Postby snrdg121408 » Sat Feb 29, 2020 3:40 am

Hello AnotherDilbert,
AnotherDilbert wrote:
Sat Feb 29, 2020 1:44 am
snrdg121408 wrote: A. In the Military Column the 1 medic is required per 120 crew.

1. In MgT what defines the ship's crew?
Presumably everyone defined in the Determine crew section, including flight crew.
The Marines who are transported by the USN are not permanently assigned to the the ship that is carrying them. The aircraft, aircraft crews and their support units are not permanently assigned to carrier and are not considered ship's company/crew.

Technically the Marines and air wing personnel are passengers each with their own chain of command, but they are all answerable to the ship's commanding officer.
snrdg121408 wrote: B. In the military column 1 steward is required per 10 high or 100 middle passengers.

Who are high and middle passengers on a military vessel?
High and Mid passengers are well defined in the Spacecraft Operations chapter of the Core rules.

I guess normal naval ships don't carry passengers, but VIP transports may?
The CRB definitions for high, middle, low, basic, working, and stowaways are for commercial not military vessels.

Military ships, that I am aware of, that transport VIPs do not add crew to accommodate them. The ship's crew are assigned to take care of them, besides, most VIPs bring their own personnel
snrdg121408 wrote: C. In the Commercial Column the Captain position is defined as usually the leading officer.

3. Shouldn't hulls with at least two crew members have one designated by the title of captain?
Presumably all craft requires a ship's master, regardless of number of crew, but apparently only civilian ships with more than 20 crew, and hence specified officers, require a titled Captain.

I don't really think the crew table is intended to specify exact job titles, but more the approximate number of people normally considered necessary to operate the ship.
[/quote]

Captain is not a specific job position it is a title. The ship's commanding officer is a specific position.

The Military Crew column specifically mentions Captain who is the leading officer of a naval vessel.

A shipmaster, master, ship's captain or captain are all titles that can be applied to the office that is held accountable for the safety of the ship, cargo, passengers, and crew.

I have watched a number of television series that focus on non-military ships at sea, all the ones I remember. mentions that the usually leading officer as being the Shipmaster, Master, or Captain. One show with title Disasters at Sea clearly mentions Captain of non-military ships. On the game warden show Lone Star Law the wardens check for Captain licenses on commercial fishing vessels.

The individuals who put the crew requirements together, in my opinion, did not put forth a lot of research in crewing a ship.

Heck, the pilot of commercial aircraft are designated as Captain.
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Re: HG 2e Crew questions

Postby snrdg121408 » Sat Feb 29, 2020 3:45 am

Hello Old School,
Old School wrote:
Sat Feb 29, 2020 2:11 am
I know Navy types like to look down on Marines, but to not factor them in when determining what level of medical care is needed seems a bit callous.
The Marines like to look down on Navy types just as much as the Navy types look down on the Marines. As AndrewW indicated the Marines have Navy corpsmen/medics assigned to them that are separate from the ship's medical staff.
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Re: HG 2e Crew questions

Postby snrdg121408 » Sat Feb 29, 2020 3:58 am

Hi Condottiere,
Condottiere wrote:
Sat Feb 29, 2020 2:47 am
Image

Stewards could be orderlies taking care of junior and senior officers' laundry, and running the wardroom.

As regards medical personnel, it;s usually dependent on access to comprehensive medical facilities and qualified personnel within a timeframe where treatment can still make a significant difference, and unless Five Kay medics are as competent as Two Kay doctors, and space travel permits immediate evacuation.

Of course, the option exists to flash freeze the patient.
In the USN the Supply Department usually provides the personnel to take care of the officers.

The subs I was on had two corpsman and an approximately 10 foot long by 5 foot wide space for a sickbay. The tenders I tied alongside and the one I served on had a compact medical clinic available.

I've watched a couple of shows with ER Doctors who did a stint on a cruise ship that was less capable than ERs.
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Re: HG 2e Crew questions

Postby Condottiere » Sat Feb 29, 2020 9:12 am

Recalling Doctor At Sea (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfMTdzAKVWE), this usually isn't a choice assignment, but necessary if you have a bunch of people unable to get access to more centralized medical facilities.

In the original High Guard, the command section provided for one medical officer, and you had two service crew per thousand tonnes, possibly an extra one for security; I guess they forgot about stewards.

https://youtu.be/pfMTdzAKVWE?t=4276, seems relevant, plus ad hoc medical assistance.
Last edited by Condottiere on Sat Feb 29, 2020 9:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: HG 2e Crew questions

Postby AnotherDilbert » Sat Feb 29, 2020 9:16 am

snrdg121408 wrote: The Marines who are transported by the USN are not permanently assigned to the the ship that is carrying them. The aircraft, aircraft crews and their support units are not permanently assigned to carrier and are not considered ship's company/crew.
If some part of the crew is part of the Imperial Flying Corps does not matter, they are still people and require medical attention.

The crew requirements does not describe organisation, just how many warm bodies are needed. Whether they are employed by the Star Patrol or the Imperial Navy is entirely beside the point.

I doubt that the organisation of the Roman or other ancient wet navies matter much to the 57th century Imperial Navy.

snrdg121408 wrote: The CRB definitions for high, middle, low, basic, working, and stowaways are for commercial not military vessels.
A High Passage is a specified service, of course a military or scout ship can carry passengers to that specification. You just normally don't.

snrdg121408 wrote: The Military Crew column specifically mentions Captain who is the leading officer of a naval vessel.
The Military column specifies a Captain as an additional person, in excess of the other officers.

The Commercial column specifies not an additional person, but that one of the otherwise specified crew members carry that title.
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Re: HG 2e Crew questions

Postby locarno24 » Sat Feb 29, 2020 1:01 pm

That's one big change from 1e to 2e - 1e has the assumption that 'ship's troops' are part of the standard complement.

As to the captain question, obviously every ship has a commander, but I don't know if the 3I has the "the captain is called a captain even if they're not a captain and no one else is called a captain even if they are a captain" tradition.
Understand that I'm not advocating violence.
I'm just saying that it's highly effective and I strongly recommend using it.
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Re: HG 2e Crew questions

Postby Annatar Giftbringer » Sat Feb 29, 2020 4:55 pm

they do seem to follow that tradition, at least according to the Element cruiser book:
Element cruisers, p.46 wrote:Commanding Officer – Normally an officer of rank commander, sometimes a senior lieutenant-commander awaiting promotion or full captain leading a task force or squadron. The commanding officer is always addressed as the ship’s ‘captain’, even if he does not hold that rank
Element cruisers, p.52 wrote: By convention, a marine captain is addressed as ‘force commander’ when aboard to avoid confusion.
Element cruisers, p.64 wrote: A marine force aboard a cruiser will normally be commanded by a marine captain, who is addressed by the courtesy title ‘force commander’ when aboard ship.
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Re: HG 2e Crew questions

Postby snrdg121408 » Sat Feb 29, 2020 7:04 pm

Hello AnotherDilbert,
AnotherDilbert wrote:
Sat Feb 29, 2020 9:16 am
snrdg121408 wrote: The Marines who are transported by the USN are not permanently assigned to the the ship that is carrying them. The aircraft, aircraft crews and their support units are not permanently assigned to carrier and are not considered ship's company/crew.
If some part of the crew is part of the Imperial Flying Corps does not matter, they are still people and require medical attention.

The crew requirements does not describe organisation, just how many warm bodies are needed. Whether they are employed by the Star Patrol or the Imperial Navy is entirely beside the point.

I doubt that the organisation of the Roman or other ancient wet navies matter much to the 57th century Imperial Navy.
The Marines bring there own medical support that does not increase the authorized warm bodies assigned as permanent crew to the ship carrying the Marines. The Air Wing when serving onboard a carrier also has the specialized medical staff they have assigned to them. The carrier's warm bodies assigned to the medical department is based on the permanent crew assigned to the ship.

Funny, the authors and designers of Traveller have put a lot of similarity to the wet navies of the past. The major difference between a wet and space navy is the medium being sailed through.
snrdg121408 wrote: The CRB definitions for high, middle, low, basic, working, and stowaways are for commercial not military vessels.
A High Passage is a specified service, of course a military or scout ship can carry passengers to that specification. You just normally don't.
If a scout carries a VIP as a High Passage one of the staterooms is allocated to the passenger. if the stateroom was assigned to a crew member that person has to share a stateroom with one of the other crew members.

When the boats I served on had inspection teams or other riders what normally happened is that junior officers got bounced out of their assigned staterooms, which then trickled down to the enlisted crew being pushed out of the bunks.
snrdg121408 wrote: The Military Crew column specifically mentions Captain who is the leading officer of a naval vessel.
The Military column specifies a Captain as an additional person, in excess of the other officers.

The Commercial column specifies not an additional person, but that one of the otherwise specified crew members carry that title.
The Captain of a Naval Vessel is counted as one of the vessel's officer not as an additional one.

No, the Commercial column states the position of Captain is usually the leading officer there is nothing stating that the position is filled by one of the specified crew.

Which crew position is going to be the "Captain" when there are no officers?

According the the Crew Requirements Table on a commercial hull 1 officer is required per full 20 crew. At that point there is a leading officer who is an additional position based on crew size.

Merchant Marine Ship's Master/Captain is not one of the other specified crew member/positions.
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Re: HG 2e Crew questions

Postby Old School » Sat Feb 29, 2020 8:03 pm

Ever considered you’re putting way too much thought into what these rules say? I’d suggest an alternative: go with a setup that makes sense to you and don’t give the table on p. 21 another thought. The rules obviously don’t give much thought to crew requirements. No required sensor operators, comm operators, cargo handlers, etc, despite each of these obviously being critical functions for certain ships. A BCr383 warship with only one designated astrogator?

Any supplement that really goes into detail on crew requirements for a particular ship comes up with its own crew model for the ship in question, with no real regard for the abstracted number in the rulebook. I’d suggest you do the same with your designs or your games. It makes a lot more sense than trying to shoehorn a fit with the crew requirement table in High Guard.
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Re: HG 2e Crew questions

Postby snrdg121408 » Sat Feb 29, 2020 8:39 pm

Hello Old School,
Old School wrote:
Sat Feb 29, 2020 8:03 pm
Ever considered you’re putting way too much thought into what these rules say? I’d suggest an alternative: go with a setup that makes sense to you and don’t give the table on p. 21 another thought. The rules obviously don’t give much thought to crew requirements. No required sensor operators, comm operators, cargo handlers, etc, despite each of these obviously being critical functions for certain ships. A BCr383 warship with only one designated astrogator?

Any supplement that really goes into detail on crew requirements for a particular ship comes up with its own crew model for the ship in question, with no real regard for the abstracted number in the rulebook. I’d suggest you do the same with your designs or your games. It makes a lot more sense than trying to shoehorn a fit with the crew requirement table in High Guard.
Actually, I know that I do on some rules over think them or more to the point based on my background or research certain items do not feel or look right.

Most of the starship designs have only 1 astrogator for both commercial and military.

I've submitted designs on another forum with crew lists that did not follow the published crew requirements by having a defined a non-military Ship's Captain as being a pilot and astrogator. I've also included other changes that based on my background and research makes more sense that those included in the rules. Unfortunately, even with notes included, the feedback was not positive.

I'm going to take the hint and drop this topic thread.

Thank you all for your replies.
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Re: HG 2e Crew questions

Postby Old School » Sat Feb 29, 2020 9:26 pm

I don’t mean to discourage the discussion, as I think the question of what is the correct crew compliment? is a valid discussion for any ship. I’m just suggesting that the High Guard crew requirement table shouldn’t guide or constrain the discussion.
I've submitted designs on another forum with crew lists that did not follow the published crew requirements by having a defined a non-military Ship's Captain as being a pilot and astrogator. I've also included other changes that based on my background and research makes more sense that those included in the rules. Unfortunately, even with notes included, the feedback was not positive.
I think this is totally the right track, and it is unfortunate if you were discouraged from this. Someone will always disagree with your details, or course.

The ship specific supplements often do a better job with crew requirements. “Pirates of Drinax Harrier Class Commerce Raider”, “Element Cruisers” and “Deepnight Revelation” come to mind as having more detailed crew assignments. Some of the older supplements from older versions, such as those focused on the Subsidized Merchant, do the same.
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Re: HG 2e Crew questions

Postby snrdg121408 » Sat Feb 29, 2020 11:42 pm

Hello Old School,
Old School wrote:
Sat Feb 29, 2020 9:26 pm
I don’t mean to discourage the discussion, as I think the question of what is the correct crew compliment? is a valid discussion for any ship. I’m just suggesting that the High Guard crew requirement table shouldn’t guide or constrain the discussion.
I've submitted designs on another forum with crew lists that did not follow the published crew requirements by having a defined a non-military Ship's Captain as being a pilot and astrogator. I've also included other changes that based on my background and research makes more sense that those included in the rules. Unfortunately, even with notes included, the feedback was not positive.
I think this is totally the right track, and it is unfortunate if you were discouraged from this. Someone will always disagree with your details, or course.

The ship specific supplements often do a better job with crew requirements. “Pirates of Drinax Harrier Class Commerce Raider”, “Element Cruisers” and “Deepnight Revelation” come to mind as having more detailed crew assignments. Some of the older supplements from older versions, such as those focused on the Subsidized Merchant, do the same.
You have not discourage the discussion and to be honest you may have focused on the more appropriate line of questioning.

I realize that everyone has a different point of view and that my views are slightly out of kilter with a majority of the forum because of my background. I also know that it takes a very large hammer to knock some sense into me occasionally.

The issue is that there are those who would disagree with the crew requirements or other material that is not part of the RAW.

Thank you for your comment.
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Re: HG 2e Crew questions

Postby Condottiere » Sun Mar 01, 2020 12:07 am

I suspect learning the basics of astrogation is a requirement for line officers, and certified commercial starship masters.

Skippers could be the term used of boat commanders, ironic, considering how starships operate.

As regards to the actual rank, depends on the relative size of the crew and importance of the command.
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Re: HG 2e Crew questions

Postby AnotherDilbert » Mon Mar 02, 2020 11:05 am

snrdg121408 wrote: The Air Wing when serving onboard a carrier also has the specialized medical staff they have assigned to them.
It does of course not matter if your shoulder patch says Royal Navy, Royal Air Force, or Starfleet: if you work aboard you are crew. These rules are not specific to one particular campaign environment or state.
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Re: HG 2e Crew questions

Postby Annatar Giftbringer » Mon Mar 02, 2020 11:16 am

Condottiere wrote:
Sun Mar 01, 2020 12:07 am
I suspect learning the basics of astrogation is a requirement for line officers, and certified commercial starship masters.
That sounds very reasonable, and is supported by the Element cruiser book:
Element cruisers p.47 wrote: Astrogator – Arguably the most
important specialist officer aboard
the vessel, the astrogator is absolutely
critical to operations and is kept very busy. He is assisted by a subordinate being trained into the role. No major warship ever leaves base with just one astrogator aboard and often there are several officers who can do the job among the senior crew.

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