A couple of quick questions

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locarno24
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A couple of quick questions

Postby locarno24 » Tue Feb 11, 2020 3:34 pm

Apologies if these are covered somewhere in the rulebook.

1) Does the sustained damage rule (severity-1 critical per 10% structural damage) not apply to non-starship vehicles?
2) What does the Track trait in Central Supply Catalogue do? Given it's attached to AA weapons exclusively, I assume something to do with the 'difference of speed' DM?
3) Why is demanding surrender an Electronics/SOC check rather than, say, a Persuade/SOC check? Surely opening a channel to the other ship isn't the hard bit?
4) Does Treasure Ship feature a variant of the Gazelle? The Battle of Exe makes a big deal of the fact they're armed with Nuclear Missiles, but a High Guard Gazelle-class has only direct-fire weapons.
5) What is the point of a standard configuration hull? Close configuration is tougher and cheaper, and Spheres are much cheaper for the same toughness. Do they have some advantage I don't see?
6) How is something made of multiple separate linked elements tougher than a solid sphere, anyway?
7) How do multiple PCs co-operate - not a task chain, but direct assistance on a single job ? The example I have in mind is multiple PCs co-operating on the 12+ check to shift a dTon of cargo by hand.
Understand that I'm not advocating violence.
I'm just saying that it's highly effective and I strongly recommend using it.
AnotherDilbert
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Re: A couple of quick questions

Postby AnotherDilbert » Tue Feb 11, 2020 4:11 pm

locarno24 wrote: 1) Does the sustained damage rule (severity-1 critical per 10% structural damage) not apply to non-starship vehicles?
Spacecraft only.


locarno24 wrote: 2) What does the Track trait in Central Supply Catalogue do? Given it's attached to AA weapons exclusively, I assume something to do with the 'difference of speed' DM?
Annatar Giftbringer wrote:
Tue Sep 20, 2016 5:01 am
As -Daniel- said, there was a track trait in the playtest. It allowed the weapon to ignore speed modifiers:

Track: Through the use of guided control surfaces or high-precision targeting, this weapon has been designed to attack fast-moving targets such as aircraft. It ignores all penalties for Fast Moving targets (see Traveller Core Rulebook, page XX).


locarno24 wrote: 5) What is the point of a standard configuration hull? Close configuration is tougher and cheaper, and Spheres are much cheaper for the same toughness. Do they have some advantage I don't see?
No real advantage, just the choice if you don't want to choose.
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locarno24
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Re: A couple of quick questions

Postby locarno24 » Tue Feb 11, 2020 4:14 pm

AnotherDilbert wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 4:11 pm
locarno24 wrote: 2) What does the Track trait in Central Supply Catalogue do? Given it's attached to AA weapons exclusively, I assume something to do with the 'difference of speed' DM?
Annatar Giftbringer wrote:
Tue Sep 20, 2016 5:01 am
As -Daniel- said, there was a track trait in the playtest. It allowed the weapon to ignore speed modifiers:

Track: Through the use of guided control surfaces or high-precision targeting, this weapon has been designed to attack fast-moving targets such as aircraft. It ignores all penalties for Fast Moving targets (see Traveller Core Rulebook, page XX).
Thanks. Interesting to note that that thread also implies you ignore the Evasive Action reaction.
Understand that I'm not advocating violence.
I'm just saying that it's highly effective and I strongly recommend using it.
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Re: A couple of quick questions

Postby Annatar Giftbringer » Tue Feb 11, 2020 9:12 pm

For 7, I was thinking why not use the task chain rules, even if they work simultaneously..?

Assign a primary shifter, the character that needs to beat 12+. Everyone else involved makes a regular Str check (or profession (cargo handler), athletics (str) or whatever’s most appropriate) and reference the task chain table on p.60 of the core rule book and adds their dm to the primary shifter. Most of the time each extra person shifting the cargo will add +1, with the occasional +2. Should work rules mechanics-wise?
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Re: A couple of quick questions

Postby ShawnDriscoll » Wed Feb 12, 2020 6:00 am

Annatar Giftbringer wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 9:12 pm
For 7, I was thinking why not use the task chain rules, even if they work simultaneously..?
Best practice.
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Re: A couple of quick questions

Postby Old School » Wed Feb 12, 2020 2:46 pm

For #3, Mongoose uses Comm skill in where persuade or diplomacy makes more sense. Never understood it. Go with what makes sense to you.

For #4, the Pirates of Drinax was originally written for Mongoose 1st edition, in which the gazelles had missiles. Just got missed in the editing for 2nd edition. Won’t be the last time you find something like this. The salvage hauler and corsair designs change names and sizes from one edition to the next.
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Re: A couple of quick questions

Postby Reynard » Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:21 pm

"5) What is the point of a standard configuration hull? Close configuration is tougher and cheaper, and Spheres are much cheaper for the same toughness. Do they have some advantage I don't see?"

Seems Mongoose wanted to grandfather this particular ship feature from earlier editions maybe as a nod. It also gives a baseline configuration. Sometimes you don't want a disadvantage but also don't want to pay more.

I still throw it on some designs and at the same time have remodeled older standard configurations to other configurations I felt fit. 11,000 worlds means it's very possible.
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Re: A couple of quick questions

Postby AnotherDilbert » Wed Feb 12, 2020 6:49 pm

locarno24 wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 4:14 pm
Annatar Giftbringer wrote:
Tue Sep 20, 2016 5:01 am
Track: Through the use of guided control surfaces or high-precision targeting, this weapon has been designed to attack fast-moving targets such as aircraft. It ignores all penalties for Fast Moving targets (see Traveller Core Rulebook, page XX).
Thanks. Interesting to note that that thread also implies you ignore the Evasive Action reaction.
I don't see that. Trait Track removes the Fast Moving Target DM (Core, p71), not the Evasive Action DM (Core, p132).

Predicting smooth normal motion is not the same as predicting erratic evasion.
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Re: A couple of quick questions

Postby Condottiere » Wed Feb 12, 2020 7:51 pm

Tracking should be dependent on sensors, predictive on whatever abacus you have handy.
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locarno24
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Re: A couple of quick questions

Postby locarno24 » Wed Feb 26, 2020 4:01 pm

When a missile salvo reaches its target, the missile makes an attack roll as normal. However, the Gunner skill of the Traveller(s) that fired the salvo is not used as a DM.
Instead, the number of missiles remaining in the salvo greatly affects their chances of making a successful attack. Apply DM+1 to the attack roll for every missile in the salvo.
This wording implies the only thing that changes is the Gunner skill of the Traveller is replaced with the salvo density - which feels wrong; if the gunner skill of the missile officer is not used, logically their DEX wouldn't be either.

Would a Sensor Lock still apply a boon, though? And would the lock need to exist at point of launch, point of impact, or both?

Equally, what about damage to missile racks? Does a severity 1 critical to a missile rack do anything? What about if only 1 missile turret of 2 is damaged?
Understand that I'm not advocating violence.
I'm just saying that it's highly effective and I strongly recommend using it.
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Re: A couple of quick questions

Postby Annatar Giftbringer » Wed Feb 26, 2020 4:58 pm

This wording implies the only thing that changes is the Gunner skill of the Traveller is replaced with the salvo density - which feels wrong; if the gunner skill of the missile officer is not used, logically their DEX wouldn't be either.
My understanding is that firing a missile is a skill check, with DEX modifier as bonus. When gunner skill is removed, there is no skill check and thus the DEX bonus disappears too since it’s just a bonus to a check...um, I hope that made sense, it sounded better in my head :)
Would a Sensor Lock still apply a boon, though? And would the lock need to exist at point of launch, point of impact, or both?
Good question, I’ve been wondering that too! Sensor locks could be very useful for small salvos.
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Re: A couple of quick questions

Postby AnotherDilbert » Wed Feb 26, 2020 9:40 pm

Core, p163 wrote: When a missile salvo reaches its target, the missile makes an attack roll as normal. However, the Gunner skill of the Traveller(s) that fired the salvo is not used as a DM.
Note that the missile salvo attacks, not the ship or any specific gunner. The gunner is not involved.

The launching ship's gunners can optimise the salvo with Launch Control and Time-on-Target Salvo actions etc.
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Re: A couple of quick questions

Postby Condottiere » Thu Feb 27, 2020 2:27 am

Persuading someone to surrender is a psychological check, persuasion (whether in the form of smooth talking AND/or intimidation) on one side, morale and/or logic on the other.

Multi person cooperation might work better with practice, where you could have actions choreographed.
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Re: A couple of quick questions

Postby locarno24 » Thu Feb 27, 2020 8:33 am

AnotherDilbert wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 9:40 pm
Core, p163 wrote: When a missile salvo reaches its target, the missile makes an attack roll as normal. However, the Gunner skill of the Traveller(s) that fired the salvo is not used as a DM.
Note that the missile salvo attacks, not the ship or any specific gunner. The gunner is not involved.

The launching ship's gunners can optimise the salvo with Launch Control and Time-on-Target Salvo actions etc.
Good point - which implies the ship is still involved and hence - barring any statement to the contrary - Target Locks should still apply.
Where is the Time-On-Target Salvo? (or do you just mean lobbing 'fast' and 'slow' missiles at long range targets on alternate turns)

I wasn't, honestly, so bothered about the gunner, but what happens if one of the launchers is damaged. That feels like it should have some impact - if the salvo originated entirely from a launcher with a Severity-1 weapon critical, you should probably inflict a Bane, but a salvo is normally from multiple launchers.
Understand that I'm not advocating violence.
I'm just saying that it's highly effective and I strongly recommend using it.
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Re: A couple of quick questions

Postby Annatar Giftbringer » Thu Feb 27, 2020 9:25 am

Missile ambush, time-on-target salvo and concentric attack are “advanced missile operations” from the Element Cruiser book.
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Re: A couple of quick questions

Postby locarno24 » Thu Feb 27, 2020 10:34 am

another reason I should probably add that to my next bundle of stuff.

Big ship fights seem to boil down to flinging ridiculous numbers of missiles at one another so quickly that more detail in missile combat would be very welcome!
Understand that I'm not advocating violence.
I'm just saying that it's highly effective and I strongly recommend using it.
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Re: A couple of quick questions

Postby AnotherDilbert » Thu Feb 27, 2020 11:50 am

locarno24 wrote: Good point - which implies the ship is still involved and hence - barring any statement to the contrary - Target Locks should still apply.
I believe not:
Core, p161 wrote: Attacks made by the spacecraft against this target gain a Boon until the sensor lock is broken (see Electronic Warfare).
Missiles are Smart (aka Fire-and-forget), hence the missiles make the attack roll, not the ship or the gunner. I believe the missiles would need sensor lock for it to apply, see Reconnaissance Probe missile (Element Class Cruisers).

locarno24 wrote: I wasn't, honestly, so bothered about the gunner, but what happens if one of the launchers is damaged. That feels like it should have some impact - if the salvo originated entirely from a launcher with a Severity-1 weapon critical, you should probably inflict a Bane, but a salvo is normally from multiple launchers.
Note that the launcher, not the missiles are damaged. IMTU I simply reduce the launch capability of the mount by half.
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Re: A couple of quick questions

Postby AnotherDilbert » Thu Feb 27, 2020 11:54 am

locarno24 wrote: Big ship fights seem to boil down to flinging ridiculous numbers of missiles at one another so quickly that more detail in missile combat would be very welcome!
Spinals, missiles, and fighters (in basic combat) are the main ship killers. All needs to considered and countered by a complete fleet.
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locarno24
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Re: A couple of quick questions

Postby locarno24 » Mon Mar 02, 2020 1:09 pm

So...have acquired the element cruiser book. I have to say there's some interesting stuff in here for missile combat (it's nice that the "advanced missile operations" options mean the gunner skill of a missile officer actually matters).


A couple of quick queries or clarifications:

Sub-command centre - I assume the small bridge mentioned here is talking about the 'smaller bridge' option from P.17 of High Guard?

Reconnaissance Probe - fine. Essentially, substitute one missile in a salvo for a probe to get DM+2 on the attack roll (which is fair enough as it's only slightly better than just firing another standard missile)

Salvo Decoy - it's referred to as a salvo decoy missile, so presumably I'd have to fire it out of a standard launcher? Assuming you fire a small missile bay (12 Missiles) and a single missile rack turret (1 salvo decoy = 12 'fake missile' submunitions), the defender would see 2 salvoes? And unless you spend a sensor operator's action to determine which is real (or assuming you fail, or the salvo was fired at close enough range you don't have time), you'd basically be using point defence on one or other salvo without knowing which one was really attack missiles?

Multimode Decoy - again, it's said to be on an ASM-41 chassis, so presumably needs a missile rack/bay to get it off the ship. Which means you presumably can't use it as a reaction - or can you, if the decoy is in space ahead of the salvo attacking? The check has no duration attached to it, which is usually the case for stuff you can use as a reaction.


Advanced missile operations
when using an ambush or concentric attack, is the extra time spent setting up the attack prior to firing? Time-on-target specifically says the flight time is increased, whilst the others don't. This is relevant because if a concentric attack spends D3 rounds doing 'setup' followed by 1 round 'flight time' the missiles are only vulnerable to EW attacks for that 1 round in space, whilst opening them up to an average of three times as long being jammed means you'd likely lose any benefit gained to extra ECM casualties.
Understand that I'm not advocating violence.
I'm just saying that it's highly effective and I strongly recommend using it.
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Re: A couple of quick questions

Postby Annatar Giftbringer » Wed Mar 11, 2020 7:28 am

locarno24 wrote:
Mon Mar 02, 2020 1:09 pm
So...have acquired the element cruiser book. I have to say there's some interesting stuff in here for missile combat (it's nice that the "advanced missile operations" options mean the gunner skill of a missile officer actually matters).
Congrats on your purchase! If you end up enjoying the box even half as much as I do, you're gonna be one happy Traveller :)

A couple of quick queries or clarifications:

Sub-command centre - I assume the small bridge mentioned here is talking about the 'smaller bridge' option from P.17 of High Guard?
I'd assume so too, yeah.
Reconnaissance Probe - fine. Essentially, substitute one missile in a salvo for a probe to get DM+2 on the attack roll (which is fair enough as it's only slightly better than just firing another standard missile)
Yup. Seems more useful for smaller salvoes. Plus it can be used as a long-range probe drone!
Salvo Decoy - it's referred to as a salvo decoy missile, so presumably I'd have to fire it out of a standard launcher? Assuming you fire a small missile bay (12 Missiles) and a single missile rack turret (1 salvo decoy = 12 'fake missile' submunitions), the defender would see 2 salvoes? And unless you spend a sensor operator's action to determine which is real (or assuming you fail, or the salvo was fired at close enough range you don't have time), you'd basically be using point defence on one or other salvo without knowing which one was really attack missiles?
That's my understanding too. So for an Element cruiser, one bay's worth of decoys equals one pod's worth of real missiles, one reason I like the intelligence pod and primarily use it's bays for special missiles (decoys, drones, the occasional ortillery…)

Since each type of missile is a salvo of its own there has to be one decoy salvo and one real. Might be even better if we could mix types within a salvo, but a nightmare to handle ruleswise.
Multimode Decoy - again, it's said to be on an ASM-41 chassis, so presumably needs a missile rack/bay to get it off the ship. Which means you presumably can't use it as a reaction - or can you, if the decoy is in space ahead of the salvo attacking? The check has no duration attached to it, which is usually the case for stuff you can use as a reaction.
Agreed on it being a missile. The reaction thing is a great question, hadn't thought of that myself! Either way it can of course be used against a long-range volley, or to fool sensors and make the enemy think you're coming from the wrong direction - or to fool them into thinking you're a full fleet when you're just a single ship.
Advanced missile operations
when using an ambush or concentric attack, is the extra time spent setting up the attack prior to firing? Time-on-target specifically says the flight time is increased, whilst the others don't. This is relevant because if a concentric attack spends D3 rounds doing 'setup' followed by 1 round 'flight time' the missiles are only vulnerable to EW attacks for that 1 round in space, whilst opening them up to an average of three times as long being jammed means you'd likely lose any benefit gained to extra ECM casualties.
I'd say prior to firing.

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