Fessor Cargo Multipurpose Ship

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Fessor Cargo Multipurpose Ship

Postby snrdg121408 » Tue Feb 04, 2020 6:01 pm

Hello all,

Looking at the illustration of the Fessor the hull appears to be a standard configuration while the attached pods I think are configured as spheres.

The pod record sheets shows them as standard hull configurations.

Are the pods spheres?
Last edited by snrdg121408 on Tue Feb 04, 2020 7:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fessor Cargo Multipurpos Ship

Postby Condottiere » Tue Feb 04, 2020 6:07 pm

Image
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Re: Fessor Cargo Multipurpose Ship

Postby snrdg121408 » Tue Feb 04, 2020 7:42 pm

Hello Condottiere,

The illustration for the Fessor is not on the cover of the PDF. The illustration for the Fessor is found, counting from the cover, on the third page below the overview of the ship.
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Re: Fessor Cargo Multipurpose Ship

Postby Condottiere » Wed Feb 05, 2020 11:23 am

Unfortunately, Google comes out dry beyond the preview.
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Re: Fessor Cargo Multipurpose Ship

Postby snrdg121408 » Wed Feb 05, 2020 1:48 pm

Morning Condottiere,
Condottiere wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 11:23 am
Unfortunately, Google comes out dry beyond the preview.
I bought and downloaded a couple of other products in the Foreven Worlds Single Ships line and they all have the same cover. Also my apologies for not thanking you for your effort on my behalf in the first reply and this one, my four year old neighbor came by for a visit.
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Re: Fessor Cargo Multipurpose Ship

Postby snrdg121408 » Wed Feb 05, 2020 5:09 pm

Hello all,

I may have run into another item on the Fessor which deals with the armor.

The Fessor's combined 400 ton hull mounting crystaliron armor that provides 3 points of protection requires 15 tons at a cost of Cr 3,000,000. My calculation match those of the record sheet.

I checked to see what tonnage and cost for 3 points of crystaliron would be on the 200 ton hull section and four pods to determine how much each section needed to make up the combined armor tons and cost. There is no special rounding instruction so I used the default of rounding the calculations down.

HG 2e page 13 lists Crystaliron consuming 1.25% of tonnage and 5% hull cost per point of protection.

The 204 ton section using 3 point of crystaliron needs 204 x 0.0125 x 3 = 2.55 x 3 = 7.65 or 7 tons

Per the record sheet each Fessor pod is 49 tons mounting 3 points of crystal iron requires 2 tons of armor at a cost of Cr 367,500.

One 49 ton pod with 3 protection points of crystaliron consumes 49 x 1.25% x 3 = 0.6125 x 3 = 1.8375 tons rounding crystaliron with 3 points of protection consumes 1 ton of armor not 2 per the record sheet.

Bumping a pods crystaliron protection to 4 results are 49 x 0.0125 x 4 = 0.6125 x 4 = 2.45 rounding down to 2 tons.

Using 200 and 50 tons with 3 points of crystaliron armor does not work out unless 200 ton section is rounded down and the pods are rounded up.

Using 3 points of crystaliron on a 204 ton section and four 49 ton pods or 200 ton section and four 50 ton pods my calculations is 11 tons of armor at a cost of Cr 3,000,000.

Am I not understanding how to calculate armor tonnage and cost?
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Re: Fessor Cargo Multipurpose Ship

Postby AnotherDilbert » Wed Feb 05, 2020 5:58 pm

Armour should not be rounded. Do not round numbers without instruction in the rules.

See Light Fighter, HG p94:
Image
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Re: Fessor Cargo Multipurpose Ship

Postby Old School » Wed Feb 05, 2020 7:55 pm

The author posts here regularly under the name dmccoy1693. You might try sending him a private message. Or keep this on the front page long enough and he’ll turn up. He’s also active on the Mongoose Traveller group on Facebook.
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Re: Fessor Cargo Multipurpose Ship

Postby snrdg121408 » Wed Feb 05, 2020 9:55 pm

Hello AnotherDilbert,
AnotherDilbert wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 5:58 pm
Armour should not be rounded. Do not round numbers without instruction in the rules.

See Light Fighter, HG p94:
Image
In one of my earlier topic posts, which I have not been able to find, provided a source page number and the quote that unless directed otherwise round numbers down. I did write the quote down on print out I made of HG 2e but not the source or page number.

The author/designer of the Fessor has rounded the armor tonnage for 3 points of crystaliron for a 49 tons x 1.25% x 3 = 0.6125 x 3 = 1.8375 to 2 tons.

Per the sample ship record sheet provided armor tonnage is shown as one decimal place which indicates that a Fessor 49 ton pod's armor is 1.8 tons which is still not 2 tons as detailed in the Fessor pod's record sheet. The tonnage of four pods = 4 x 1.8 = 7.2 tons of combined armor.

One 204 ton section of the breakaway hull with 3 points of crystaliron armor takes up 204 x 1.25% x 3 = 2.55 x 3 = 7.65 or 7.7 tons.

Please provide the source and page number stating that "Armour should not be rounded. Do not round numbers without instruction in the rules."
Last edited by snrdg121408 on Thu Feb 06, 2020 3:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fessor Cargo Multipurpose Ship

Postby snrdg121408 » Wed Feb 05, 2020 9:59 pm

Hello Old School,
Old School wrote:
Wed Feb 05, 2020 7:55 pm
The author posts here regularly under the name dmccoy1693. You might try sending him a private message. Or keep this on the front page long enough and he’ll turn up. He’s also active on the Mongoose Traveller group on Facebook.
Thank you for suggestions of contacting the Fessor's author and the member id. To be honest I'm not into Facebook but private messaging is a better possibility.
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Re: Fessor Cargo Multipurpose Ship

Postby Jeraa » Thu Feb 06, 2020 1:41 am

Near the beginning of the core rulebook, you find this:
Rounding: Unless otherwise stated, whenever you are asked to divide in Traveller, always round down.
Note that is specifies that you do so when asked to, not always. You only round when told to, and even then it usually specifies rounding down or up. There are no rules about rounding armor tonnages, so you don't round them. (I did a search of the core rulebook and High Guard pdfs for appropriate terms, and nothing came up regarding armor tonnage rounding.)
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Re: Fessor Cargo Multipurpose Ship

Postby AndrewW » Thu Feb 06, 2020 2:24 am

Correct, armour tonnage and cost is what it is and does not get rounded. Though of course you can do whatever you wish with your own game, but doing so may result in a visit from the Tavrchedl’ for re-education.
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Re: Fessor Cargo Multipurpose Ship

Postby snrdg121408 » Thu Feb 06, 2020 3:54 am

Hello Jerra,
Jeraa wrote:
Thu Feb 06, 2020 1:41 am
Near the beginning of the core rulebook, you find this:
Rounding: Unless otherwise stated, whenever you are asked to divide in Traveller, always round down.
Note that is specifies that you do so when asked to, not always. You only round when told to, and even then it usually specifies rounding down or up. There are no rules about rounding armor tonnages, so you don't round them. (I did a search of the core rulebook and High Guard pdfs for appropriate terms, and nothing came up regarding armor tonnage rounding.)
Thank you for quoting CRB 2e page 5/PDF page 6 right column entry for Rounding. I disagree that the quoted text indicates rounding only when asked to. I will agree that the text states that when asked to divide in MgT the number is rounded down unless specified to round differently.

On CRB 2e page 5/PDF page 6 left column is the entry for 3D treats a six sided die as a three sided die by dividing the number by 2 and rounding up. Without the direction to round up the instruction of when asked to divide would have defaulted to round down.

Looking at the record sheets for the HG 2e Spacecraft of the Third Imperium I only found, but I may have missed something, the Light Fighter page 94/PDF page 45 has a tonnage of 0.25 and the Troop Transport on page 104/PDF page 105 with a tonnage of 0.8. Running the calculations these numbers do not need rounding.

A 204 ton Fessor hull with 3 points of crystaliron armor takes up 204 x 1.25% x 3 = 2.55 x 3 = 7.65 tons based on the light fighter example needs no rounding.

One 49 ton Fessor pod with 3 points of crystaliron armor takes up 49 x 1.25% x 3 = 0.6125 x 3 = 1.8375 tons. None of the space craft examples in CRB 2e and CHG 2e appear to have armor tonnage past two decimal places. Using the samples I have available the Fessor pod's armor tons of 1.8375 would either drop or round the 7 making the armor 1.83 tons or rounding the 7 up making the tonnage 1.84. Combing the armor of the four pods results in a total of 7.32 or 7.36 tons. Using either number when added to the 204 ton section armor tonnage still would not equal 15 tons of 3 points of crystaliron armor on a 400 ton hull.

Of course 1.8375 tons x 4 = 7.35 tons which when added to the 204 ton hull's 7.65 tons of armor does equal 15 tons.

I have not figured out how to link page 3 of the PDF showing the illustration of the Fessor showing the four pods attached. The pods look more like spheres to me which changes the cost of the pods if they are spheres rather than standard hulls.
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Re: Fessor Cargo Multipurpose Ship

Postby snrdg121408 » Thu Feb 06, 2020 4:00 am

Hello AndrewW
AndrewW wrote:
Thu Feb 06, 2020 2:24 am
Correct, armour tonnage and cost is what it is and does not get rounded. Though of course you can do whatever you wish with your own game, but doing so may result in a visit from the Tavrchedl’ for re-education.
Being a retired USN submarine sailor they figured that re-education would be a wasted effort since I volunteered for duty on a vessel that sinks itself and in my case has one more surface than sinking.;-)
Last edited by snrdg121408 on Thu Feb 06, 2020 1:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fessor Cargo Multipurpose Ship

Postby Condottiere » Thu Feb 06, 2020 10:38 am

When it comes to money and space, you want to be precise.

When in doubt, and if the values of the equipment come from the official products, basically High Guard and Core, recalculate the design and note any discrepancies.

If the values diverge from what should be canon, the designer should place a note explaining the exception.
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Re: Fessor Cargo Multipurpose Ship

Postby AnotherDilbert » Thu Feb 06, 2020 10:49 am

snrdg121408 wrote: One 49 ton Fessor pod with 3 points of crystaliron armor takes up 49 x 1.25% x 3 = 0.6125 x 3 = 1.8375 tons. None of the space craft examples in CRB 2e and CHG 2e appear to have armor tonnage past two decimal places. Using the samples I have available the Fessor pod's armor tons of 1.8375 would either drop or round the 7 making the armor 1.83 tons or rounding the 7 up making the tonnage 1.84.
...
Still no need no round. The example ships presumably don't use more than two decimal numbers because they don't need more than two decimal numbers; the numbers displayed are exact.

Perhaps you can display fewer digits for convenience if you are using a spreadsheet, but there is no need to calculate with anything less than the exact number.

So the armour of the pods take 1.8375 Dt.

There is no division involved, so no rule about rounding, hence no reason to round down.
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Re: Fessor Cargo Multipurpose Ship

Postby snrdg121408 » Thu Feb 06, 2020 2:07 pm

Hi Condottiere,
Condottiere wrote:
Thu Feb 06, 2020 10:38 am
When it comes to money and space, you want to be precise.

When in doubt, and if the values of the equipment come from the official products, basically High Guard and Core, recalculate the design and note any discrepancies.

If the values diverge from what should be canon, the designer should place a note explaining the exception.
None of the equipment I used had in the service or worked with for building or repairing computers listed specification precisely.

So far the numbers for a Fessor seem to work for a 400 ton hull but are off for a five section breakaway hull.

I agree that whenever anything diverges from the directions the designer should include an explanation for the exception.
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Re: Fessor Cargo Multipurpose Ship

Postby snrdg121408 » Thu Feb 06, 2020 3:47 pm

Howdy AnotherDilbert,
AnotherDilbert wrote:
Thu Feb 06, 2020 10:49 am
snrdg121408 wrote: One 49 ton Fessor pod with 3 points of crystaliron armor takes up 49 x 1.25% x 3 = 0.6125 x 3 = 1.8375 tons. None of the space craft examples in CRB 2e and CHG 2e appear to have armor tonnage past two decimal places. Using the samples I have available the Fessor pod's armor tons of 1.8375 would either drop or round the 7 making the armor 1.83 tons or rounding the 7 up making the tonnage 1.84.
...
Still no need no round. The example ships presumably don't use more than two decimal numbers because they don't need more than two decimal numbers; the numbers displayed are exact.

Perhaps you can display fewer digits for convenience if you are using a spreadsheet, but there is no need to calculate with anything less than the exact number.

So the armour of the pods take 1.8375 Dt.

There is no division involved, so no rule about rounding, hence no reason to round down.
I agree that the example designs with armor return results displaying no more than two decimal places is due selecting an armor type tonnage modifier with a specific hull tonnage that returns the appropriate result.

What is the exact number of Pi?

As far as I know there is no exact number for Pi since the pattern keeps repeating.

I have on a number of spreadsheets that do not limit rounding and have not been able to match the starting number. In order to match the starting number rounding has to be made somewhere.

According to the 200-ton Yacht's ship record sheet, HG 2e page 126/PDF page 127 the ship has 1 engineer. The crew requirements on HG 2e page 21/PDF page 22 has the requirement of 1 engineer per 35 tons of drives and power plant. The MD is 2 tons, JD is 10 tons and the power plant is 6 tons which is a total of 18 tons divided by 35 tons = 0.514285714285714. I'm not sure how you get 0.514285714285714 of a person.

The rounding text states that "unless otherwise stated, whenever asked to divide in Traveller, always round down" on CRB 2e page 5/PDF page 6. There is no direction on rounding the Yacht's 18 tons of drives and power plant divided by 35 tons result of 0.514285714285714 engineers. Following the rounding direction the Yacht does not require an engineer.
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Re: Fessor Cargo Multipurpose Ship

Postby PsiTraveller » Thu Feb 06, 2020 5:29 pm

The ship at 400 tons has 15 tons of armor, as per the rules.

It could simply be that the authors decided to not go into decimal calculations and gave the 49 ton sections 2 tons each, for 8 tons, and left the 7 tons on the core unit. It makes all the math simpler for using the ship in combat. Is it completely accurate, no.
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Re: Fessor Cargo Multipurpose Ship

Postby AnotherDilbert » Thu Feb 06, 2020 6:32 pm

snrdg121408 wrote: What is the exact number of Pi?
π is an exact number. As it is an irrational number it can't be written exactly as a fraction, hence in decimal notation.

As far as I know we don't need to use any irrational numbers in the MgT2 ship design system.

snrdg121408 wrote: According to the 200-ton Yacht's ship record sheet, HG 2e page 126/PDF page 127 the ship has 1 engineer. The crew requirements on HG 2e page 21/PDF page 22 has the requirement of 1 engineer per 35 tons of drives and power plant. The MD is 2 tons, JD is 10 tons and the power plant is 6 tons which is a total of 18 tons divided by 35 tons = 0.514285714285714. I'm not sure how you get 0.514285714285714 of a person.
You are correct, by RAW the Yacht needs no Engineer. But look at the "Small Ships" section on p20 of HG.

So, you can operate small ships without Engineers, but when something happens you may really want one.

The crew requirements are very soft. In order to recreate the crew requirements of the small ships in HG (basically lifted from LBB2), some values have to be rounded up and some values have to be rounded down, even if that is not what RAW says.

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