Fleet Combat/Quite-A-Lot-Of-Credits-Squadron Game?

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Re: Fleet Combat/Quite-A-Lot-Of-Credits-Squadron Game?

Postby AnotherDilbert » Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:21 am

Condottiere wrote: Point defence and interceptor missiles are described in Traveller Companion.
What do they do, mechanically?
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Re: Fleet Combat/Quite-A-Lot-Of-Credits-Squadron Game?

Postby Condottiere » Fri Jan 17, 2020 12:36 pm

They're limited range to close and short, and for the same volume four and two times per standard, which also reflects in their potential damage.

Rate of fire, unfortunately, remains the same.

One thing about starwarships designated in the close escort role, is that their weapon systems can be integrated to that of another vessel that they are supposed to be protecting, to shoot down missile swarms, and fighters.
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Re: Fleet Combat/Quite-A-Lot-Of-Credits-Squadron Game?

Postby AnotherDilbert » Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:52 pm

Condottiere wrote: They're limited range to close and short, and for the same volume four and two times per standard, which also reflects in their potential damage.
Do you mean they are smaller and hence take less storage space?

They still kill incoming missiles 1-for-1?
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Re: Fleet Combat/Quite-A-Lot-Of-Credits-Squadron Game?

Postby Condottiere » Fri Jan 17, 2020 2:46 pm

Yes, to both; unless I missed something.

Torpedoes, though, are tougher cookies.
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Re: Fleet Combat/Quite-A-Lot-Of-Credits-Squadron Game?

Postby arcador » Fri Jan 17, 2020 3:46 pm

There are rules how to use them to hit. In general, a good gunner will stop missiles in 1:1 ratio though. Dogfighters get +4 to hit, interceptors get +2 to hit.

However, interceptors have 3/6 chance to stop torpedos and 100% missiles. We can translate this to 50% effectiveness for torpedos, for fleet combat.

dogfighter missiles have 4/6 chance to stop missiles and 2/6 to stop torpedoes. We can translate that to 66% and 33% effectiveness, for fleet combat.

They hit the same round they are fired for the ranges that they can operate. It's not specifically stated, but they have Thrust scores of 10 and 12.
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Re: Fleet Combat/Quite-A-Lot-Of-Credits-Squadron Game?

Postby Annatar Giftbringer » Sat Jan 18, 2020 11:45 am

First off, thanks for creating this thread, I’m following it with great interest!

I’ve been meaning to take a detailed look at fleet battles several times but never quite gotten around to it, so this is a perfect time for me!

The suggested setup of destroyer escorts and Gazelles vs 6x Halaheike sounds like a perfect start to me!

Sure the destroyers might be a bit weak, but they’re an official High Guard design and it could be interesting to see how they fare. Perhaps give them radiation shielding and a rematch if they take too much damage without it?

The Halaheike btw is a 1,200 dt Aslan pocket warship armed with 2x particle bays and assorted turrets, as well as 10x light fighters. Well armoured but slower than the imperial ships, it can be found on p.90-92 of Ships of the Reach (pirates of Drinax book 3).

All the talk about dogfight missiles made me go back and re-read their Companion entry. I never quite understood how they work before, but this time the penny finally dropped and I think I got it!

For some reason I read the missile descriptions on p.160 and the conducting missile combat paragraph on the next page as two separate entries when they’re supposed to work together! Feeling a wee bit stupid, but also happy :)

Basically, dogfight missiles allow missile launchers to be used for point defense reactions while interceptor missiles are budget frag missiles, that can target missiles swarms intended for other ships (kinda like using point defense software).
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Re: Fleet Combat/Quite-A-Lot-Of-Credits-Squadron Game?

Postby Annatar Giftbringer » Sat Jan 18, 2020 11:56 am

Two thoughts regarding sandcasters:

1) Perhaps they’re not ignored, but assumed to always be used and thus integrated into laser damage? A 1D beam laser deals 3.5 damage on average, while burst lasers average 7. A single sandcaster canister removes 3.5 laser damage. Round down for sand and up for laser to slightly savor the attacker and we end up with 1 point of damage for beam lasers and 4 for burst, just like the table on p.88 says.

2) should we allow sandcasters loaded with chaff canisters to contribute to the missile defense pool just like laser turrets?
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Re: Fleet Combat/Quite-A-Lot-Of-Credits-Squadron Game?

Postby Condottiere » Sat Jan 18, 2020 5:15 pm

I recently found out that modern missiles aren't really fooled by flares anymore, and I believe chaff is created by matching the radar bandwidth and printing out the correct length of reflective material to create decoy echoes.
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Re: Fleet Combat/Quite-A-Lot-Of-Credits-Squadron Game?

Postby arcador » Sun Jan 19, 2020 3:49 pm

Well, chaff, as written, only reduces salvo attack by 1, thus this is only 1 missile.

When 200 fly, 1 is hardly a difference.
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Re: Fleet Combat/Quite-A-Lot-Of-Credits-Squadron Game?

Postby Annatar Giftbringer » Sun Jan 19, 2020 4:05 pm

I’ve always interpreted it as -1 per canister but I could be wrong...
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Re: Fleet Combat/Quite-A-Lot-Of-Credits-Squadron Game?

Postby locarno24 » Mon Jan 20, 2020 10:01 am

Condottiere wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 5:15 pm
I recently found out that modern missiles aren't really fooled by flares anymore, and I believe chaff is created by matching the radar bandwidth and printing out the correct length of reflective material to create decoy echoes.
Modern aircraft do have "throw radiating stuff over the side" defensive aids, but precisely how they work and what they radiate are very closely guarded secrets. I suspect there's a degree of careful matching of 'flare' properties to the known properties of seekers of enemy weapons (and vice versa). I'm sure the software in a modern missile is capable of recognising and disregarding a simple 'generic' flare.
Do you mean they are smaller and hence take less storage space?

They still kill incoming missiles 1-for-1?
Yes, to both; unless I missed something.
Essentially making them a countermissile launcher makes sense; if the countermissile is as heavy as the missile you use it against you can at best break even.
It's still - frankly - not as good as a 'proper' point defence turret - a triple beam laser with a competent crew will kill 4 missiles, compared to 3 from a triple rack loaded with countermissiles.
To make matters worse, at shorter ranges (or with faster missiles), the flight time is "immediate" and you may not get a countermissile launch off.
However, it's significantly better defence at Distant range where you can afford to lob 3-4 volleys at each incoming salvo, whilst 'classic' point defence only gets one salvo and it's done.

I haven't got the Companion - may need to get a copy.
I’ve been meaning to take a detailed look at fleet battles several times but never quite gotten around to it, so this is a perfect time for me!

The suggested setup of destroyer escorts and Gazelles vs 6x Halaheike sounds like a perfect start to me!

Sure the destroyers might be a bit weak, but they’re an official High Guard design and it could be interesting to see how they fare. Perhaps give them radiation shielding and a rematch if they take too much damage without it?
To start with I was just going to use them 'as written' to get my head round the system.

A TL14 fleet should have TL14 missiles?
Indeed. My error, sorry. Standard-14s on the Aslan ships.
Understand that I'm not advocating violence.
I'm just saying that it's highly effective and I strongly recommend using it.
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Re: Fleet Combat/Quite-A-Lot-Of-Credits-Squadron Game?

Postby locarno24 » Mon Jan 20, 2020 10:38 am

So...just checking I've converted the elements right:

Imperial Navy

Group 1 - 8 x Gazelle-class EC
Thrust - 6
Hull - 144 (Behaves as Squadron)
Traits - None
Crew Rating - 2
Defence - 4
Salvo Defence - 64
Screen Defence - 0
Armour - 9%

Turrets - Bonus +4 - 4 Damage (Medium Range)
Barbettes - Bonus +4 - 12 Damage (Very Long Range, Radiation)

Group 2 - 2 x Chrysanthemum-class DDE
Thrust - 6
Hull - 80 (Behaves as Squadron)
Traits - None
Crew Rating - 2
Defence - 5
Salvo Defence - 0
Screen Defence - 0
Armour - 3%

Barbettes - Bonus +4 - 11 Damage (Medium Range, Radiation) - 6 Damage (Very Long Range, Radiation)
Missiles - 12 Standard-15 Missiles (10 Damage)


Group 2 - 2 x Fer-De-Lance-class DDE
Thrust - 6
Hull - 80 (Behaves as Squadron)
Traits - None
Crew Rating - 2
Defence - 5
Salvo Defence - 48
Screen Defence - 0
Armour - 0%

Turrets - Bonus +4 - 3 Damage (Medium Range)
Missiles - 24 Standard-15 Missiles (10 Damage)

Ihatei Raiders


Group A - 3 x Halaheike-class Pocket Warships
Thrust - 3
Hull - 159 (Behaves as Squadron)
Traits - None
Crew Rating - 2
Defence - 3
Salvo Defence - 48
Screen Defence - 0
Armour - 30%

Turrets - Bonus +3 - 3 Damage (Medium Range)
Bays - Bonus +3 - 10 Damage (Very Long Range, Radiation)
Missiles - 36 Standard-14 Missiles (10 Damage)



Group B - 3 x Halaheike-class Pocket Warships
Thrust - 3
Hull - 159 (Behaves as Squadron)
Traits - None
Crew Rating - 2
Defence - 3
Salvo Defence - 48
Screen Defence - 0
Armour - 30%

Turrets - Bonus +3 - 3 Damage (Medium Range)
Bays - Bonus +3 - 10 Damage (Very Long Range, Radiation)
Missiles - 36 Standard-14 Missiles (10 Damage)



Group C - 60 x Light Fighters
Thrust - 6
Hull - 24 (Behaves as Squadron)
Traits - None
Crew Rating - 2
Defence - 3
Salvo Defence - 120 or 0*
Screen Defence - 0
Armour - 6%

Turrets - Bonus +3 - 12 Damage (Close Range)



* The fleet combat Point Defence rules specifically say "per turret", which the light fighter doesn't have, so RAW, I think their salvo defence is 0. The Fighters chapter says they can use fixed mounts for point defence.
On the other hand, hurting fighters with stuff other than missiles is bloody difficult, so making the missile launcher the defacto antifighter weapon makes a certain degree of sense.
Understand that I'm not advocating violence.
I'm just saying that it's highly effective and I strongly recommend using it.
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Re: Fleet Combat/Quite-A-Lot-Of-Credits-Squadron Game?

Postby Condottiere » Mon Jan 20, 2020 1:21 pm

I think countermeasures have four ways of being implemented:

1. Disabling the sensors.

2. Blinding the sensors

3. Decoying the sensors.

4. Fooling the sensors.

They sound the same, but range from active to passive methods.
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Re: Fleet Combat/Quite-A-Lot-Of-Credits-Squadron Game?

Postby locarno24 » Mon Jan 20, 2020 1:40 pm

Just looking at the converted stats before playing through;

Should probably consider (1) swapping the IN groups around so there's one Fer-De-Lance and one Chrysanthemum in each group, and possibly (2) Split the Pocket Warships into 3x2 instead of 2x3.

As it stands, since the Chrysanthemum has zero Salvo Defence, it's just going to be target practice for a hail of Standard-14s, with three salvos (which are thrown at 2-per-turn) coming within a hair of shattering both ships with no dice rolls required.

(36 missiles -5*2 for defence = 26 hits = 260/10 = 26 damage = 25 damage through armour versus 80 hull)

On a related note - I notice a damaged squadron suffers a DM to its attacks, but I notice it doesn't lose salvo defence, which it probably should.
Understand that I'm not advocating violence.
I'm just saying that it's highly effective and I strongly recommend using it.
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Re: Fleet Combat/Quite-A-Lot-Of-Credits-Squadron Game?

Postby AnotherDilbert » Tue Jan 21, 2020 10:35 am

locarno24 wrote: Group 1 - 8 x Gazelle-class EC
Thrust - 6
Hull - 144 (Behaves as Squadron)
Traits - None
Crew Rating - 2
Defence - 4
Salvo Defence - 64
Screen Defence - 0
Armour - 9%

Turrets - Bonus +4 - 4 Damage (Medium Range)
Barbettes - Bonus +4 - 12 Damage (Very Long Range, Radiation)
Hull 140? 176 × 8 / 10 = 140.8 rounded down to 140.
Barbettes: 24 damage? 15 damage × 2 barbettes × 8 ships / 10 = 24.

locarno24 wrote: Group 2 - 2 x Chrysanthemum-class DDE
Thrust - 6
Hull - 80 (Behaves as Squadron)
Traits - None
Crew Rating - 2
Defence - 5
Salvo Defence - 0
Screen Defence - 0
Armour - 3%

Barbettes - Bonus +4 - 11 Damage (Medium Range, Radiation) - 6 Damage (Very Long Range, Radiation)
Missiles - 12 Standard-15 Missiles (10 Damage)
Hull should probably be 484 (= 1000 / 2.5 × 110% × 110%) per ship, so 484 × 2 / 10 = 96 for the squadron. The ship is Close Structure configuration and Reinforced hull strength.

locarno24 wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 10:38 am
Group 2 - 2 x Fer-De-Lance-class DDE
Thrust - 6
Hull - 80 (Behaves as Squadron)
Traits - None
Crew Rating - 2
Defence - 5
Salvo Defence - 48
Screen Defence - 0
Armour - 0%

Turrets - Bonus +4 - 3 Damage (Medium Range)
Missiles - 24 Standard-15 Missiles (10 Damage)
Hull should probably be 96 again, for the same reason.


For Imperial warships I would allow any missile from HG, including nukes. Let's leave other books we don't have out of this.

The Chrysanthemum squadron has no Salvo Defence and no one has Fleet Defence, so is dead meat against missiles. I would counter this by combining all frigates into one squadron:
Four frigates, two Chrysantemum, two Fer-de-Lance
Thrust - 6
Hull - 192
Traits - None
Crew Rating - 2
Defence - 5
Salvo Defence - 48
Screen Defence - 0
Armour - 0%

Turrets - Bonus +4 - 3 Damage (Medium Range)
Barbettes - Bonus +4 - 11 Damage (Medium Range, Radiation) - 6 Damage (Very Long Range, Radiation)
Missiles - 36 Missiles


It is still easy to overwhelm the missile defence, so we might even combine all Imperial ships into one single squadron:
Four frigates (Chrysantemum, Fer-de-Lance), eight escorts (Gazelle)
Thrust - 4
Hull - 332
Traits - None
Crew Rating - 2
Defence - 4
Salvo Defence - 112
Screen Defence - 0
Armour - 3%

Turrets - Bonus +4 - 8 Damage (Medium Range)
Barbettes - Bonus +4 - 35 Damage (Medium Range, Radiation) - 30 Damage (Very Long Range, Radiation)
Missiles - 36 Missiles


locarno24 wrote: Ihatei Raiders
Likewise I would group all raiders into one squadron (and the fighters in another), unless they intend to manoeuvre independently, but that would only make them more vulnerable.


locarno24 wrote: * The fleet combat Point Defence rules specifically say "per turret", which the light fighter doesn't have, so RAW, I think their salvo defence is 0. The Fighters chapter says they can use fixed mounts for point defence.
The Point Defence action specifically says turret. The fleet system specifically says per turret.
The basic squadron rule only allows fighters to use PD to defend other ships without using Point Defence software, it says nothing about fixed mounts, as far as I can see.
I would call it 0 Salvo Defence for fixed mount fighters.
Fighters should really have turrets otherwise they can't attack if they lose the dogfight or PD.

locarno24 wrote: On the other hand, hurting fighters with stuff other than missiles is bloody difficult, so making the missile launcher the defacto antifighter weapon makes a certain degree of sense.
Killing fighters with missiles is difficult since Defence is subtracted from salvos for each fighter, so the 60 fighter squadron would have a Defence of 60 × 3 = 180 against all salvoes.

Of course they would die quickly if missiles start hitting, every nuke that hit would kill about 6 fighters.
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Re: Fleet Combat/Quite-A-Lot-Of-Credits-Squadron Game?

Postby AnotherDilbert » Tue Jan 21, 2020 10:41 am

locarno24 wrote: As it stands, since the Chrysanthemum has zero Salvo Defence, it's just going to be target practice for a hail of Standard-14s, with three salvos (which are thrown at 2-per-turn) coming within a hair of shattering both ships with no dice rolls required.
Sorry, I didn't see your post, but I noticed the problem too.

locarno24 wrote: On a related note - I notice a damaged squadron suffers a DM to its attacks, but I notice it doesn't lose salvo defence, which it probably should.
The squadron doesn't lose individual ships until you reform the squadron. I guess it's to simplify the process, so you don't have to recalculate the squadron every turn.
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Re: Fleet Combat/Quite-A-Lot-Of-Credits-Squadron Game?

Postby locarno24 » Tue Jan 21, 2020 11:04 am

I think mobbing up the Pocket Warships and the DDEs makes sense. Keeping the ECs separate - since they're very different displacement and would probably operate separately - makes sense too.
Hull should probably be 484 (= 1000 / 2.5 × 110% × 110%) per ship, so 484 × 2 / 10 = 96 for the squadron. The ship is Close Structure configuration and Reinforced hull strength.
They're listed as Hull 400 in High Guard. Which I acknowledge doesn't necessarily mean the rules there aren't wrong, but I wasn't planning on double-checking all the maths in the sourcebooks....



So...

Changing around and 'mobbing up'

Group 1 - 8 x Gazelle-class EC
Thrust - 6
Hull - 140 (Behaves as Squadron)
Traits - None
Crew Rating - 2
Defence - 4
Salvo Defence - 64
Screen Defence - 0
Armour - 9%

Turrets - Bonus +4 - 4 Damage (Medium Range)
Barbettes - Bonus +4 - 24 Damage (Very Long Range, Radiation)


Group 2 - 2 x Chrysantemum-class, 2 x Fer-de-Lance-class DDE
Thrust - 6
Hull - 192 (Behaves as Squadron)
Traits - None
Crew Rating - 2
Defence - 5
Salvo Defence - 48
Screen Defence - 0
Armour - 0%

Turrets - Bonus +4 - 3 Damage (Medium Range)
Barbettes - Bonus +4 - 11 Damage (Medium Range, Radiation) - 6 Damage (Very Long Range, Radiation)
Missiles - 36 Missiles


Group A - 6 x Halaheike-class Pocket Warships
Thrust - 3
Hull - 317 (Behaves as Squadron)
Traits - None
Crew Rating - 2
Defence - 3
Salvo Defence - 96
Screen Defence - 0
Armour - 30%

Turrets - Bonus +3 - 6 Damage (Medium Range)
Bays - Bonus +3 - 20 Damage (Very Long Range, Radiation)
Missiles - 72 Standard-14 Missiles (10 Damage)


Group B - 60 x Light Fighters
Thrust - 6
Hull - 24 (Behaves as Squadron)
Traits - None
Crew Rating - 2
Defence - 3
Salvo Defence - 0
Screen Defence - 0
Armour - 6%

Turrets - Bonus +3 - 12 Damage (Close Range)




So... I'd suggest that the engagement is likely to start at Distant range - with a dozen high TL ships, in a co-operating force, that it's unlikely the Ihatei can sneak up on the convoy the way they might on a lone merchant, and equally since there is a nominal block of several mega-dTons of freighters sat at the origin point of the grid, it's not like the Aslan aren't going to see them either. So nominally, all the imperial ships are parked on the 'origin point' and the Aslan are in C5D, overtaking from astern (the Imperial warships are all faster than the 3G Halaheike but they'll have a 2G advantage over the freighters). With no surprise on either side it can be assumed the fighters are already void-borne.

Initiative Order
20 - Group 2 (Imperial DDEs)
18 - Group B (Aslan Light Fighters)
16 - Group 1 (Imperial ECs)
8 - Group A (Aslan Pocket Warships)
Understand that I'm not advocating violence.
I'm just saying that it's highly effective and I strongly recommend using it.
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Re: Fleet Combat/Quite-A-Lot-Of-Credits-Squadron Game?

Postby AnotherDilbert » Tue Jan 21, 2020 11:44 am

If we group the ships into two large clumps we can see some things immediately:

Imperials:
Four frigates (Chrysantemum, Fer-de-Lance), eight escorts (Gazelle)
Thrust - 4
Hull - 332
Traits - None
Crew Rating - 2
Defence - 4
Salvo Defence - 112
Screen Defence - 0
Armour - 3%

Turrets - Bonus +4 - 8 Damage (Medium Range)
Barbettes - Bonus +4 - 35 Damage (Medium Range, Radiation) - 30 Damage (Very Long Range, Radiation)
Missiles - 36 Missiles



Aslan:
Six Pocket Warships
Thrust - 3
Hull - 316
Traits - None
Crew Rating - 2
Defence - 3
Salvo Defence - 96
Screen Defence - 0
Armour - 30%

Turrets - Bonus +3 - 7 Damage (Medium Range) (four triple laser turrets per ship?)
Bays - Bonus +3 - 21 Damage (Very Long Range, Radiation) (one small Particle bay?)
Missiles - 72 Missiles (four triple missile turrets?)

Plus the fighter squadron.


We can see directly that missiles will not play a significant part in this combat and neither will lasers, except from the fighters. With Pulse lasers lasers would do much more damage at Long range, and have a chance of influencing the combat.

The Impies will win the particle duel with better Attack and Defence, but the Aslan fighters have a chance of revenge.

With an effective thrust of 2 (3 less the convoys 1), the Aslan ships will spend 12 turns at Very Long range, which will probably decide the engagement.

With an effective thrust of 5 the fighters will take 8 turns to close the range and start slaughtering the convoy. That is hardly enough for the Impies to kill them while still engaging the enemy ships.
Ignoring the enemy ships the Impies would do:
4 turns at VLong range: 30 damage × average 6.8% effect = 4 × 30 × 6.8% ≈ 8 damage.
2 turns at Long range: 30 damage × average 19% effect = 2 × 30 × 19% ≈ 11 damage.
1 turns at Medium range: 30 damage × average 38% effect = 1 × 38 × 6.8% ≈ 14 damage.
For a total of 8 + 11 + 14 = 33 damage against 24 Hull. If the ships are ignored the fighters will probably all die before reaching combat range.

In 8 turns at VLong range the Aslan ships will do on average:
8 × 21 × 6.8% = 11 damage, something the Impies can easily ignore.


At Long range against the ships the Impies would do:
30 × 38%[av. fleet damage] × 70%[armour] ≈ 8 damage
and the Aslan ships would do:
21 × 19%[av. fleet damage] × 97%[armour] ≈ 4 damage

It would take some time, but the Impies would wear the Aslan down and win.


Sorry, I don't see any way the Aslan can win the military engagement. They might call it a strategic victory if enough Impie transports died, but all Aslan ships would be lost.
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Re: Fleet Combat/Quite-A-Lot-Of-Credits-Squadron Game?

Postby AnotherDilbert » Tue Jan 21, 2020 11:53 am

locarno24 wrote: They're listed as Hull 400 in High Guard. Which I acknowledge doesn't necessarily mean the rules there aren't wrong, but I wasn't planning on double-checking all the maths in the sourcebooks....
OK, use the values in the book.

locarno24 wrote: Group 1 - 8 x Gazelle-class EC
Group 2 - 2 x Chrysantemum-class, 2 x Fer-de-Lance-class DDE
Group A - 6 x Halaheike-class Pocket Warships
OK.

locarno24 wrote: Group B - 60 x Light Fighters
Turrets - Bonus +3 - 12 Damage (Close Range)
Sorry, just noticed:
Damage 60 lasers á 4 damage = 60 × 4 / 10 = 24 damage.

locarno24 wrote: So... I'd suggest that the engagement is likely to start at Distant range - with a dozen high TL ships, in a co-operating force, that it's unlikely the Ihatei can sneak up on the convoy
Agreed.

locarno24 wrote: So nominally, all the imperial ships are parked on the 'origin point' and the Aslan are in C5D, overtaking from astern (the Imperial warships are all faster than the 3G Halaheike but they'll have a 2G advantage over the freighters). With no surprise on either side it can be assumed the fighters are already void-borne.
Agreed.

locarno24 wrote: Initiative Order
20 - Group 2 (Imperial DDEs)
18 - Group B (Aslan Light Fighters)
16 - Group 1 (Imperial ECs)
8 - Group A (Aslan Pocket Warships)
OK.
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Re: Fleet Combat/Quite-A-Lot-Of-Credits-Squadron Game?

Postby AnotherDilbert » Tue Jan 21, 2020 11:57 am

AnotherDilbert wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 11:53 am
locarno24 wrote: Group 1 - 8 x Gazelle-class EC
Group 2 - 2 x Chrysantemum-class, 2 x Fer-de-Lance-class DDE
Group A - 6 x Halaheike-class Pocket Warships
OK.
Note that by not grouping the Impies they cannot support each others Salvo Defence, and are vulnerable to missiles. This can very well cost them dearly...
Last edited by AnotherDilbert on Tue Jan 21, 2020 12:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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