Fleet Combat/Quite-A-Lot-Of-Credits-Squadron Game?

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Re: Fleet Combat/Quite-A-Lot-Of-Credits-Squadron Game?

Postby Annatar Giftbringer » Tue Jan 21, 2020 11:58 am

The Halaheike class has:
2x small particle bays
4x triple beam laser turrets
6x missile/missile/sand turrets

Are we using the standard 10 dt fighter from High Guard for the Aslan fighters?
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Re: Fleet Combat/Quite-A-Lot-Of-Credits-Squadron Game?

Postby AnotherDilbert » Tue Jan 21, 2020 12:03 pm

Annatar Giftbringer wrote: The Halaheike class has:
2x small particle bays
4x triple beam laser turrets
6x missile/missile/sand turrets
Thanks, then it would be:

Six Pocket Warships
Thrust - 3
Hull - 316
Traits - None
Crew Rating - 2
Defence - 3
Salvo Defence - 96
Screen Defence - 0
Armour - 30%

Turrets - Bonus +3 - 7 Damage (Medium Range) (four triple laser turrets)
Bays - Bonus +3 - 42* Damage (Very Long Range, Radiation) (two small Particle bays)
Missiles - 72 Missiles (six double missile turrets)

* 6 ships × 2 bays × 35 damage / 10 = 6 × 2 × 35 / 10 = 42.

Annatar Giftbringer wrote: Are we using the standard 10 dt fighter from High Guard for the Aslan fighters?
I assume so.
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Re: Fleet Combat/Quite-A-Lot-Of-Credits-Squadron Game?

Postby locarno24 » Tue Jan 21, 2020 12:52 pm

We can see directly that missiles will not play a significant part in this combat and neither will lasers, except from the fighters. With Pulse lasers lasers would do much more damage at Long range, and have a chance of influencing the combat.

The Impies will win the particle duel with better Attack and Defence, but the Aslan fighters have a chance of revenge.

With an effective thrust of 2 (3 less the convoys 1), the Aslan ships will spend 12 turns at Very Long range, which will probably decide the engagement.

With an effective thrust of 5 the fighters will take 8 turns to close the range and start slaughtering the convoy. That is hardly enough for the Impies to kill them while still engaging the enemy ships.
Ignoring the enemy ships the Impies would do:
4 turns at VLong range: 30 damage × average 6.8% effect = 4 × 30 × 6.8% ≈ 8 damage.
2 turns at Long range: 30 damage × average 19% effect = 2 × 30 × 19% ≈ 11 damage.
1 turns at Medium range: 30 damage × average 38% effect = 1 × 38 × 6.8% ≈ 14 damage.
For a total of 8 + 11 + 14 = 33 damage against 24 Hull. If the ships are ignored the fighters will probably all die before reaching combat range.

In 8 turns at VLong range the Aslan ships will do on average:
8 × 21 × 6.8% = 11 damage, something the Impies can easily ignore.


At Long range against the ships the Impies would do:
30 × 38%[av. fleet damage] × 70%[armour] ≈ 8 damage
and the Aslan ships would do:
21 × 19%[av. fleet damage] × 97%[armour] ≈ 4 damage

It would take some time, but the Impies would wear the Aslan down and win.
Thanks for the workthrough!

And yes, since the fleet combat system only counts number-of-lasers, then any military-grade ship would be advised to trade out beam lasers for pulse lasers (it's generally a good idea anyway, I suspect).
I thought the TL difference (since it boosts both attack and defence bonus) would probably be the deciding factor. And you'd probably need to focus on the fighters; both for defending the freighters and because if they reach the same sector you're essentially at a net DM-2 when exchanging shots (which balances out the tech disadvantage). The DDEs all have barbette-calibre guns which don't suffer problems for engaging fighters, though.

With missile fire, even if the DDEs had been separate I'm not sure how lethal they would have been; the four DDE can rack up 48 salvo defence plus the 20 defence for being a 4-ship squadron with Evade/1, meaning that even a 72-missile volley would only land 4 hits.
Understand that I'm not advocating violence.
I'm just saying that it's highly effective and I strongly recommend using it.
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Re: Fleet Combat/Quite-A-Lot-Of-Credits-Squadron Game?

Postby AnotherDilbert » Tue Jan 21, 2020 1:22 pm

Group 1 - 8 x Gazelle-class EC
Thrust - 6
Hull - 140 (Behaves as Squadron)
Traits - None
Crew Rating - 2
Defence - 4
Salvo Defence - 64
Screen Defence - 0
Armour - 9%

Turrets - Bonus +4 - 4 Damage (Medium Range)
Barbettes - Bonus +4 - 24 Damage (Very Long Range, Radiation)


Group 2 - 2 x Chrysantemum-class, 2 x Fer-de-Lance-class DDE
Thrust - 6
Hull - 192 (Behaves as Squadron)
Traits - None
Crew Rating - 2
Defence - 5
Salvo Defence - 48
Screen Defence - 0
Armour - 0%

Turrets - Bonus +4 - 3 Damage (Medium Range)
Barbettes - Bonus +4 - 11 Damage (Medium Range, Radiation) - 6 Damage (Very Long Range, Radiation)
Missiles - 36 Missiles


Group A - 6 x Halaheike-class Pocket Warships
Thrust - 3
Hull - 317 (Behaves as Squadron)
Traits - None
Crew Rating - 2
Defence - 3
Salvo Defence - 96
Screen Defence - 0
Armour - 30%

Turrets - Bonus +3 - 6 Damage (Medium Range)
Bays - Bonus +3 - 42 Damage (Very Long Range, Radiation)
Missiles - 72 Missiles


Group B - 60 x Light Fighters
Thrust - 6
Hull - 24 (Behaves as Squadron)
Traits - None
Crew Rating - 2
Defence - 3
Salvo Defence - 0
Screen Defence - 0
Armour - 6%

Turrets - Bonus +3 - 24 Damage (Close Range)



Let's peek ahead and see what happens with some strategies.

Distant range:
Only missiles can attack. The Impies can't launch enough missiles to hit the Aslan, either ships or fighters. The Aslan can only connect with Long Range missiles, but they do very little damage. The bulk of the Impie combat value is the Gazelles, but the Aslan can barely scratch them with missiles because of the Salvo Defence.

A full salvo of Long Range missiles against the frigates would do 72 missiles - 5 × 4 defence - 48 Salvo Defence => 4 hits á 5 damage / 10 = 2 damage. Better save the missiles for Very Long range.


Very Long range:
Let's assume the fighters charge in as fast as possible, as soon as we reach Very Long Range. The Impies must kill the fighters, and can do so using their particle weapons, as before.

The aslan can play games with salvo hang time to get two salvoes to arrive on the same round, e.g.
round 1: Launch 72 Nuclear missiles, arrives round 5.
round 2: Launch 72 Nuclear missiles, arrives round 6.
round 3: Launch 72 Advanced missiles, arrives round 5.
round 4: Launch 72 Advanced missiles, arrives round 6.

Round 5 two salvoes will arrive, one Nuke and one Advanced.

Targeting the Gazelles 32 will miss from each salvo and Salvo Defence will kill 64 missiles, starting with the Nukes, leaving 16 Advanced to hit, doing 16 × 10 / 10 = 16 damage.

Targeting the frigates 20 will miss from each salvo and Salvo Defence will kill 48 nukes, leaving 4 Nukes and 52 Advanced to hit, doing ( 4 × 25 + 52 × 10 ) / 10 = 62 damage.

The frigates are killed by four such double salvoes, presumably consuming most of the Aslan missiles.

The remaining Gazelles will lose the particle duel with the Aslan ships.


The Impies had better combine all ships into one single squadron.


Edit: Changed for Defence multiplied by number of ships.
Last edited by AnotherDilbert on Tue Jan 21, 2020 2:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fleet Combat/Quite-A-Lot-Of-Credits-Squadron Game?

Postby Annatar Giftbringer » Tue Jan 21, 2020 2:11 pm

Just double-checking, you did account for the particle bays getting -2DM to hit the Gazelles, right?

In regular combat, that would have been negated by the Aslan Cruisers having fire control/5, but that’s only relevant for spinal mounts, right?
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Re: Fleet Combat/Quite-A-Lot-Of-Credits-Squadron Game?

Postby AnotherDilbert » Tue Jan 21, 2020 2:22 pm

Annatar Giftbringer wrote: Just double-checking, you did account for the particle bays getting -2DM to hit the Gazelles, right?
Eh, no I missed that. That is a significant disadvantage, especially, at longer range.

Annatar Giftbringer wrote: In regular combat, that would have been negated by the Aslan Cruisers having fire control/5, but that’s only relevant for spinal mounts, right?
Unfortunately, yes.
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Re: Fleet Combat/Quite-A-Lot-Of-Credits-Squadron Game?

Postby locarno24 » Tue Jan 21, 2020 2:41 pm

The aslan can play games with salvo hang time to get two salvoes to arrive on the same round, e.g.
Indeed. Good point on the mixed missile types - I had said a single type for simplicity, but packing a mix of Long Range (or Advanced, depending on your TL) and Standard missiles to allow a time-on-target double-volley is a trick I've seen in normal-scale combat, too, to really irk whichever poor sod is manning the point defence turrets....
The frigates are killed by four such double salvoes, presumably consuming most of the Aslan missiles.
Halaheike-class carry 360 missiles each (30 salvoes or 3 hours of continuous fire). High Guard designs tend to carry more ammunition than they could realistically need.
Just double-checking, you did account for the particle bays getting -2DM to hit the Gazelles, right
"DM-2 is applied if attacking a target (or squadron of targets) who are each less than 100 tons in size with any weapon other than turrets or barbettes."
Unless I'm missing something somewhere else, this won't apply to a 400 dTon Gazelle-class. The only ship in that size bracket is the light fighter, and the Imperial DDEs all pack barbettes, not bays.
Understand that I'm not advocating violence.
I'm just saying that it's highly effective and I strongly recommend using it.
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Re: Fleet Combat/Quite-A-Lot-Of-Credits-Squadron Game?

Postby Annatar Giftbringer » Tue Jan 21, 2020 2:53 pm

High Guard, p.90:
Bay Weapons: All bays suffer DM-2 when attacking targets of less than 2,000 tons.

Were range modifiers from p.89 applied?
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Re: Fleet Combat/Quite-A-Lot-Of-Credits-Squadron Game?

Postby Annatar Giftbringer » Tue Jan 21, 2020 2:58 pm

Also, since there were discussions on whether the fighters should get salvo defence or not, I’m reminded of this, from high Guard, p.85:
Any fighter or squadron equipped with pulse or beam lasers may use the Point Defence action (see page 160 of the Traveller Core Rulebook) to defend either themselves or any ship being attacked by missiles that is within Adjacent or Close range.
I’m thinking that perhaps this would be valid under fleet combat rules too, an exception to the “turret” writing?
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Re: Fleet Combat/Quite-A-Lot-Of-Credits-Squadron Game?

Postby locarno24 » Tue Jan 21, 2020 3:11 pm

Let's see....a combined fleet group would be:

Escort Group - 8 x Gazelle-class EC, 2 x Chrysanthemum-class DDE, 2 x Fer-De-Lance-class DDE
Group 1 - 8 x Gazelle-class EC
Thrust - 6 - all ships thrust-6
Hull - 301 (Behaves as Squadron) - (8 x 176 + 4 x 400 =3008)
Traits - None
Crew Rating - 2
Defence - 4 - uses lowest
Salvo Defence - 112 - combined directly
Screen Defence - 0
Armour - 6% - averaged (2x0+2x1+8x3 gives an average armour/2)

Turrets - Bonus +4 - 8 Damage (Medium Range)
Barbettes - Bonus +4 - 35 Damage (Medium Range, Radiation) - 30 Damage (Very Long Range, Radiation)
Missiles - 36 Missiles


The group's base defence against a missile salvo is 48 (12 x 4) plus its 112 salvo defence means cracking it with missiles would take some doing.

Double-punch with advanced missiles allows you to put 144 missiles on target, but the base defence means only 24 from each salvo (total 48) will get to point defence range through ECM and evasion. Even if the 'slower' missiles are multiwarhead missiles (not unreasonable given how lightly armoured Imperial DDEs are), there's enough salvo defence to compensate on the multiwarheads by applying 30 salvo defence and still being able to stop the advanced rounds as well.
Annoyingly, the High Guard flight times lists flight times for thrust 6 (ortillery), 10 (most weapons), 15 (long range/advanced) and 12 -but there's no thrust 12 missile or torpedo that I can see. Which is a shame as it'd let you potentially concentrate a third volley in a time-on-target attack.
Bay Weapons: All bays suffer DM-2 when attacking targets of less than 2,000 tons.
Given that the Capital Ship combat relists most of the penalties and is a fundamentally different system, I'm not sure if that penalty applies or not - as noted, there's already a 'shooting at small targets' penalty for non-turret/barbette weapons
Understand that I'm not advocating violence.
I'm just saying that it's highly effective and I strongly recommend using it.
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Re: Fleet Combat/Quite-A-Lot-Of-Credits-Squadron Game?

Postby locarno24 » Tue Jan 21, 2020 3:12 pm

Annatar Giftbringer wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 2:58 pm
Also, since there were discussions on whether the fighters should get salvo defence or not, I’m reminded of this, from high Guard, p.85:
Any fighter or squadron equipped with pulse or beam lasers may use the Point Defence action (see page 160 of the Traveller Core Rulebook) to defend either themselves or any ship being attacked by missiles that is within Adjacent or Close range.
I’m thinking that perhaps this would be valid under fleet combat rules too, an exception to the “turret” writing?
The point was made that Fighters naturally rate a borderline ridiculous defence score against missiles anyway - a flight of 10 defence 3 fighters is defence 3 against direct-fire energy weapons but defence 30 against missile salvoes.
Understand that I'm not advocating violence.
I'm just saying that it's highly effective and I strongly recommend using it.
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Re: Fleet Combat/Quite-A-Lot-Of-Credits-Squadron Game?

Postby Annatar Giftbringer » Tue Jan 21, 2020 3:17 pm

The bay quote on p.90 is from the capital ships combat chapter, so yeah I’d say it applies..
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Re: Fleet Combat/Quite-A-Lot-Of-Credits-Squadron Game?

Postby AnotherDilbert » Tue Jan 21, 2020 3:44 pm

Group 1 - 8 x Gazelle-class EC
Thrust - 6
Hull - 140 (Behaves as Squadron)
Traits - None
Crew Rating - 2
Defence - 4
Salvo Defence - 64
Screen Defence - 0
Armour - 9%

Turrets - Bonus +4 - 4 Damage (Medium Range)
Barbettes - Bonus +4 - 24 Damage (Very Long Range, Radiation)


Group A - 6 x Halaheike-class Pocket Warships
Thrust - 3
Hull - 317 (Behaves as Squadron)
Traits - None
Crew Rating - 2
Defence - 3
Salvo Defence - 96
Screen Defence - 0
Armour - 30%

Turrets - Bonus +3 - 6 Damage (Medium Range)
Bays - Bonus +3 - 42 Damage (Very Long Range, Radiation)
Missiles - 72 Missiles


The frigates are destroyed with missiles, that leaves a particle duel with the Gazelles:

Very Long range:
The Gazelles do 2D + 4[attack] - 3[defence] - 4[range] = 2D - 3 => average 18.75% damage, resulting in 24 × 19% × 70% = 3.15 damage, 1% of enemy Hull.

The Aslan do 2D + 3[attack] - 4[defence] - 4[range] - 2[bay] = 2D - 7 => average 1.53% damage, resulting in 42 × 1.5% × 91% = 0.58 damage, 0.4% of enemy Hull.

Nothing much happens.


Long range:
The Gazelles do 2D + 4[attack] - 3[defence] - 2[range] = 2D - 1 => average 38% damage, resulting in 24 × 38% × 70% = 6.38 damage, 2% of the enemy Hull.

The Aslan do 2D + 3[attack] - 4[defence] - 2[range] - 2[bay] = 2D - 5 => average 6.81% damage, resulting in 42 × 6.8% × 91% = 2.6 damage, 1.8% of enemy Hull.


Medium range:
The Gazelles do 2D + 4[attack] - 3[defence] - 0[range] = 2D + 1 => average 61% damage, resulting in 24 × 61% × 70% = 10 damage, 3% of the enemy Hull.

The Aslan do 2D + 3[attack] - 4[defence] - 0[range] - 2[bay] = 2D - 3 => average 18.75% damage, resulting in 42 × 19% × 91% = 7 damage, 5% of enemy Hull.


The Aslan will lose at longer range, but can win if they can get close enough fast enough.
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Re: Fleet Combat/Quite-A-Lot-Of-Credits-Squadron Game?

Postby AnotherDilbert » Tue Jan 21, 2020 3:48 pm

Annatar Giftbringer wrote: Were range modifiers from p.89 applied?
Yes, that I remembered.
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Re: Fleet Combat/Quite-A-Lot-Of-Credits-Squadron Game?

Postby AnotherDilbert » Tue Jan 21, 2020 3:50 pm

Annatar Giftbringer wrote: Also, since there were discussions on whether the fighters should get salvo defence or not, I’m reminded of this, from high Guard, p.85:
Any fighter or squadron equipped with pulse or beam lasers may use the Point Defence action (see page 160 of the Traveller Core Rulebook) to defend either themselves or any ship being attacked by missiles that is within Adjacent or Close range.
I’m thinking that perhaps this would be valid under fleet combat rules too, an exception to the “turret” writing?
Yes, that is what we discussed. It gives you permission to PD missiles targeted against other ships, it does not give you permission to PD with fixed mounts.
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Re: Fleet Combat/Quite-A-Lot-Of-Credits-Squadron Game?

Postby AnotherDilbert » Tue Jan 21, 2020 3:54 pm

locarno24 wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 3:11 pm
Bay Weapons: All bays suffer DM-2 when attacking targets of less than 2,000 tons.
Given that the Capital Ship combat relists most of the penalties and is a fundamentally different system, I'm not sure if that penalty applies or not - as noted, there's already a 'shooting at small targets' penalty for non-turret/barbette weapons
It's repeated on p90, it's definitely part of the Fleet system.
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Re: Fleet Combat/Quite-A-Lot-Of-Credits-Squadron Game?

Postby AnotherDilbert » Tue Jan 21, 2020 4:12 pm

locarno24 wrote: Escort Group - 8 x Gazelle-class EC, 2 x Chrysanthemum-class DDE, 2 x Fer-De-Lance-class DDE
Group 1 - 8 x Gazelle-class EC
Thrust - 6 - all ships thrust-6
Hull - 301 (Behaves as Squadron) - (8 x 176 + 4 x 400 =3008)
Traits - None
Crew Rating - 2
Defence - 4 - uses lowest
Salvo Defence - 112 - combined directly
Screen Defence - 0
Armour - 6% - averaged (2x0+2x1+8x3 gives an average armour/2)

Turrets - Bonus +4 - 8 Damage (Medium Range)
Barbettes - Bonus +4 - 35 Damage (Medium Range, Radiation) - 30 Damage (Very Long Range, Radiation)
Missiles - 36 Missiles
Thrust: The Gazelle presumably has Thrust 4 with the drop tank, dropping it would make it fail it's escort mission.

Hull 300, round down:
Core, p5 wrote:Rounding: Unless otherwise stated, whenever you are asked to divide in Traveller, always round down.
Armour: I would average weighted by tonnage, so ( 8 × 400 × 3 + 2 × 1000 × 1 + 2 × 1000 × 0 ) / 7200 [total tonnage] = 1.6, rounded to 1.


locarno24 wrote: The group's base defence against a missile salvo is 48 (12 x 4) plus its 112 salvo defence means cracking it with missiles would take some doing.
Quite. You have "enough" missile defence, or you are dead.
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Re: Fleet Combat/Quite-A-Lot-Of-Credits-Squadron Game?

Postby AnotherDilbert » Tue Jan 21, 2020 5:03 pm

AnotherDilbert wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 4:12 pm
Thrust: The Gazelle presumably has Thrust 4 with the drop tank, dropping it would make it fail it's escort mission.
Sorry, checking it seems to have Thrust 5 with the 80 Dt tank.
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Re: Fleet Combat/Quite-A-Lot-Of-Credits-Squadron Game?

Postby Condottiere » Tue Jan 21, 2020 10:52 pm

I get gee factor six (plus).
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Re: Fleet Combat/Quite-A-Lot-Of-Credits-Squadron Game?

Postby AnotherDilbert » Wed Jan 22, 2020 9:23 am

Hull 400 Dt + 80 Dt drop tank = 480 Dt
M-Drive: 24 Dt
24 / 480 = 5% (exactly), hence Thrust 5 with drop tank.

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