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HG 2e Clarification needed between Modular Construction and Modular Hull

Posted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 2:44 am
by snrdg121408
Hello all,

I'm not sure what the difference is between Modular Construction and Modular hull is. Con someone please provided a simple clarification that even this retired old submarine sailor can easily understand.

Thank you in advance.

Re: HG 2e Clarification needed between Modular Construction and Modular Hull

Posted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 8:25 am
by Condottiere
Modular construction doesn't actually have a formal definition in Traveller, though Plankwell's are given a canon description of being such.

Semi modular construction appear to be the pod options for the Element family of cruisers, and you could include any ship class with drop tanks.

Modular hull depends on which edition you're playing, Mongoose Second seems to have taken the Littoral Combat Ship variant, whereas almost every other edition thinks of the Eagle Transporter.

Re: HG 2e Clarification needed between Modular Construction and Modular Hull

Posted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:13 am
by AnotherDilbert
Modular Hull is building the ship with exchangeable modules for flexibility, e.g.:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/StanFlex

Modular Construction is building several parts of the ship concurrently, and then welding them together for a finished ship, to save construction time. Just lika a modern sub:
Image
https://navylive.dodlive.mil/2012/09/24 ... hio-class/

Re: HG 2e Clarification needed between Modular Construction and Modular Hull

Posted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 1:27 pm
by snrdg121408
Morning from the Pacific Northwest AnotherDilbert and Condottiere,

Thank you both for the simple explanation and illustration. I thought that was the difference but I was not sure.

Re: HG 2e Clarification needed between Modular Construction and Modular Hull

Posted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:53 am
by Condottiere
There are restrictions as to what you can modularize, whereas with breakaways it's free for all, with the question as to whether some ship systems are actually mandated.

Re: HG 2e Clarification needed between Modular Construction and Modular Hull

Posted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 2:05 pm
by snrdg121408
Howdy Condonttiere,
Condottiere wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:53 am
There are restrictions as to what you can modularize, whereas with breakaways it's free for all, with the question as to whether some ship systems are actually mandated.
Thank you for the reply.

Modular Construction is building the various compartments as single units while modular hull's are similar to the trucking industries shipping containers.

In the case if breakaway hulls technically two or more ships are mated together to form a single hull capable of separating back into two or more ships. In theory the rules indicate that all hull sections must have a bridge and power plant with all the other components recommended being installed. The Fessor pods suggest that the bridge can also be an optional component.

Re: HG 2e Clarification needed between Modular Construction and Modular Hull

Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 1:39 am
by PsiTraveller
HighGuard book page 64 under the software program "Virtual Crew" has ships without a bridge

"Indeed, ships can be designed without a bridge, relying purely on this software package in order to function as a drone. Ships that have no living crew make appropriate checks with
a skill level equal to their Virtual Crew score, and can also be controlled through the use of the Electronics (remote ops) skill."

So drone ships without bridges are allowed RAW. So the Fessor ship uses this to save a few million in cost and tonnage in hull volume, allowing more cargo.

I like the design in that it allows the storyline/plot point to have drone ships scuttling around a system with cargo aboard, heading for a meeting with a ship, combining the breakaway hulls onto a Jump capable section and then Jumping to the next system. Such a system would allow all sorts of adventure for heist jobs, forgery operations, piracy and covert movement. The breakaway sections also allow different functions to be used for different sections, cargo pods, hospitality pods for passenger transport, medical bays, exploration modules, mining modules etc. A single ship design can offer a lot of flexibility in designing an adventure or encounter.

Re: HG 2e Clarification needed between Modular Construction and Modular Hull

Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 3:51 am
by snrdg121408
Evening from the Pacific Northwest PsiTraveller,
PsiTraveller wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 1:39 am
HighGuard book page 64 under the software program "Virtual Crew" has ships without a bridge

"Indeed, ships can be designed without a bridge, relying purely on this software package in order to function as a drone. Ships that have no living crew make appropriate checks with
a skill level equal to their Virtual Crew score, and can also be controlled through the use of the Electronics (remote ops) skill."

So drone ships without bridges are allowed RAW. So the Fessor ship uses this to save a few million in cost and tonnage in hull volume, allowing more cargo.

I like the design in that it allows the storyline/plot point to have drone ships scuttling around a system with cargo aboard, heading for a meeting with a ship, combining the breakaway hulls onto a Jump capable section and then Jumping to the next system. Such a system would allow all sorts of adventure for heist jobs, forgery operations, piracy and covert movement. The breakaway sections also allow different functions to be used for different sections, cargo pods, hospitality pods for passenger transport, medical bays, exploration modules, mining modules etc. A single ship design can offer a lot of flexibility in designing an adventure or encounter.
I have not gotten around to reading details for the computer software though I have compiled the software from the CRB, HG 2e, and CSC.

If I am imagining a dispersed structure hull correctly mating the Fressor pods would work too and be even cheaper.

Re: HG 2e Clarification needed between Modular Construction and Modular Hull

Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:22 am
by AnotherDilbert
snrdg121408 wrote: If I am imagining a dispersed structure hull correctly mating the Fressor pods would work too and be even cheaper.
A Dispersed Hull does not offer the same advantages.

A Dispersed Hull cannot be split up in several parts. It can carry small craft in Docking Clamps, but that does not enable adding drive performance or streamlining.

Re: HG 2e Clarification needed between Modular Construction and Modular Hull

Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 9:06 am
by PsiTraveller
I think he is talking about making the Breakaway ship a Dispersed structure based hull design.

If allowed it would save 50 percent of the cost of a hull. This could be a lot of money.

pg 10 has special hulls as more options within the standard configurations. Dispersed Structure is on the Hull list on pg 11.

Question 1 is: What hull configurations are allowed to be built as Breakaway Hulls?

The list of Hull Configurations is: Standard, Streamlined, Sphere, Close, Dispersed, Planetoid and Buffered Planetoid.

Special Hulls within that list allow for the design of more complex ships. This list is Double Hull, Hamster Cage and Breakaway


M Drives do not sem to be required to be pointed in the same direction as each other in order to Function. The Breakaway design of the Deepnight Endeavour is a Close Configuration and allows the M Drives of the Fuel modules to be added to the Thrust value of the ship. (page 7 of the module) The M Drives of the fuel modules are pointing directly at each other and are perpendicular to the Main M Drives of the Parent ship.

So there seems to be a fair amount of flexibility in the capabilities of the tech.

So why not a dispersed configuration which allows bits and pieces to be added on or off like a tinker toy set? Makes for cheap shipping, although you lose 2 percent for connector tonnage, which costs a lot per ton.

Re: HG 2e Clarification needed between Modular Construction and Modular Hull

Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 12:46 pm
by Condottiere
Traveller spaceship design is a pretty much abstract process, until you try to map out the deckplans.

The advantage of a dispersed structure used to be that you can stick odds and ends everywhere, without needing to account for extra volume or cost, which made it very attractive as a battle tender, or for the Confederation Navy Midway class super carriers, since you can dock smaller spacecraft directly to the hull.

Mongoose Second has some clear departures from previous editions.

In terms of cost, it's not a multiplier, you add two megabux per tonne used.

Re: HG 2e Clarification needed between Modular Construction and Modular Hull

Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 1:41 pm
by snrdg121408
Hello AnotherDilbert,
AnotherDilbert wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:22 am
snrdg121408 wrote: If I am imagining a dispersed structure hull correctly mating the Fressor pods would work too and be even cheaper.
A Dispersed Hull does not offer the same advantages.

A Dispersed Hull cannot be split up in several parts. It can carry small craft in Docking Clamps, but that does not enable adding drive performance or streamlining.
Why would the core hull need to be streamlined since the breakaway pods are what is moving the people and goods around the system?

Nuts, I goofed and clicked submit before I was done.

A dispersed hull with the appropriately sized docking clamps can carry small craft (hulls >= 10 <100 tons) and ships (hulls >= 100 tons). A single Type V docking clamp can hold a ship of 2,000 tons or more per HG 2e PDF page 43.

The Fressor is stuck using 49-ton pods which are in my opinion small craft. A dispersed hull mounting Type II docking clamps can carrying small craft with tonnages between 31 and 99 tons.

The Fressor's maximum jump drive rating is 1 parsec and the maximum acceleration provided by the maneuver drive is 2G with or without the pods.

Re: HG 2e Clarification needed between Modular Construction and Modular Hull

Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 2:50 pm
by snrdg121408
Hello Condottiere,

Thank you once again for another helpful reply.
Condottiere wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 12:46 pm
Traveller spaceship design is a pretty much abstract process, until you try to map out the deckplans.

The advantage of a dispersed structure used to be that you can stick odds and ends everywhere, without needing to account for extra volume or cost, which made it very attractive as a battle tender, or for the Confederation Navy Midway class super carriers, since you can dock smaller spacecraft directly to the hull.

Mongoose Second has some clear departures from previous editions.

In terms of cost, it's not a multiplier, you add two megabux per tonne used.
One Type II docking clamp is capable of holding 31-99 tons requiring 5-tons of hull space at a cost of MCr1. Using four docking clamps requires 20 tons of space and cost MCr4.

On a breakaway hull the four pods require a total 8 tons of space at a cost of MCr9.8, if I've got some clue on the process.

The breakaway hull's advantage is that the space needed to connect the pods to the hull is lower than that of a dispersed hull, however the docking clamps are cheaper and allow a wider range of cargo capacity.

Re: HG 2e Clarification needed between Modular Construction and Modular Hull

Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 3:33 pm
by AnotherDilbert
snrdg121408 wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 2:50 pm
On a breakaway hull the four pods require a total 8 tons of space at a cost of MCr9.8, if I've got some clue on the process.
Breakaway connectors cost MCr 2 / Dton, so 8 Dton costs MCr 16.

The size is right, 2% of the total combined hull of 400 Dt = 8 Dt.

Re: HG 2e Clarification needed between Modular Construction and Modular Hull

Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 3:36 pm
by AnotherDilbert
snrdg121408 wrote: Why would the core hull need to be streamlined since the breakaway pods are what is moving the people and goods around the system?
The core hull has the jump fuel and needs to be refuelled?

If we rely on orbital refuelling we can't visit systems with modest starports or wilderness.


But, agreed, streamlining is not always necessary.

Re: HG 2e Clarification needed between Modular Construction and Modular Hull

Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 3:38 pm
by AnotherDilbert
PsiTraveller wrote: Question 1 is: What hull configurations are allowed to be built as Breakaway Hulls?
All of them, I would assume. There are no special limitations in the Breakaway rules.

Re: HG 2e Clarification needed between Modular Construction and Modular Hull

Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 4:09 pm
by PsiTraveller
Having a core unit that is not streamlined and having breakaway pieces that are streamlined or at least fuel scoop equipped to allow refueling is pretty standard design. Deepnight Endeavour does it. The Manta ship in TNE was the flying fuel tank for the Clipper ship.

The shuttles are the ships that skim fuel or land on planets to deliver goods. That is the multipurpose design in the Fessor. Different pods for different needs. Heck even the Modular clipper does it with the cargo or the fuel module. The sticking point is the cost for the design.

Now personally I like the use of Docking Clamps on a ship to add flexibility. 5 tons of clamp for 1 Million is cheaper than Breakaway connectors at 2 percent total hull volume at 2 MCr per ton.

A lot of the design needs will depend on where the ship is going. Is it going into the Wilds where there are no Highports or even Starports? Is Wilderness skimming a constant thing? How much flexibility is required in game to demand a multi function capable ship?

Re: HG 2e Clarification needed between Modular Construction and Modular Hull

Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 6:41 pm
by snrdg121408
Hello PsiTraveller,

My apologies for missing your reply
PsiTraveller wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 9:06 am
I think he is talking about making the Breakaway ship a Dispersed structure based hull design.

If allowed it would save 50 percent of the cost of a hull. This could be a lot of money.

pg 10 has special hulls as more options within the standard configurations. Dispersed Structure is on the Hull list on pg 11.

Question 1 is: What hull configurations are allowed to be built as Breakaway Hulls?

The list of Hull Configurations is: Standard, Streamlined, Sphere, Close, Dispersed, Planetoid and Buffered Planetoid.

Special Hulls within that list allow for the design of more complex ships. This list is Double Hull, Hamster Cage and Breakaway


M Drives do not sem to be required to be pointed in the same direction as each other in order to Function. The Breakaway design of the Deepnight Endeavour is a Close Configuration and allows the M Drives of the Fuel modules to be added to the Thrust value of the ship. (page 7 of the module) The M Drives of the fuel modules are pointing directly at each other and are perpendicular to the Main M Drives of the Parent ship.

So there seems to be a fair amount of flexibility in the capabilities of the tech.

So why not a dispersed configuration which allows bits and pieces to be added on or off like a tinker toy set? Makes for cheap shipping, although you lose 2 percent for connector tonnage, which costs a lot per ton.
I was suggesting that a dispersed hull which is on the standard hull list might be less expensive than the Fessor breakaway hull design and in theory is capable of using the Fessor's 49 tonpods..

Re: HG 2e Clarification needed between Modular Construction and Modular Hull

Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 6:58 pm
by snrdg121408
Hello again AnotherDilbert,
AnotherDilbert wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 3:36 pm
snrdg121408 wrote: Why would the core hull need to be streamlined since the breakaway pods are what is moving the people and goods around the system?
The core hull has the jump fuel and needs to be refuelled?
If we rely on orbital refuelling we can't visit systems with modest starports or wilderness.
The Fessor's 204 ton core hull based on the Cr20,000,000 price is a standard configuration hull which has partial streamlining and is capable of fuel skimming per the write-ups in HG 2e for the Leviathan page 162 and the Atlantic on page 197.

A dispersed hull, I agree, would not be capable of skimming fuel, however a Fessor's fuel collection pod in theory could do the job.
But, agreed, streamlining is not always necessary.
The standard, close, and sphere hull configurations are all partially streamlined and technically can skim for fuel. These hulls can also technically land on a world's surface by flying through the atmosphere. They can not do it as easily as a streamlined hull, but they can still land.

Re: HG 2e Clarification needed between Modular Construction and Modular Hull

Posted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 11:18 am
by Condottiere
Depends on whether there is an atmosphere.

One thing that Tea Five does point out is that dispersed structures, or a cluster stuck together, are rather more fragile than standard ones, and limits acceleration to factor one.

I don't recall if there is any mention of what happens when you exceed that limit.