MgT2 skill-level philosophy ???

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Repairman_Jack
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MgT2 skill-level philosophy ???

Postby Repairman_Jack » Tue Dec 03, 2019 7:42 am

I have a question about the MgT2 skill levels. It's made clear in the Core Rules that the designers expected characters with low skill levels (quote... average Joe's). However, this flies in the face of the typical skill rolls described in the rules. For example...

- Performing a Systems Check on Battle Dress: Average (8+) Vacc Suit
- Perform First Aid: Average (8+) Medic, EDU. The patient regains lost characteristic points equal to the Effect.
- Shouting an Order: Average (8+) Leadership check (1D seconds, SOC).
- Landing Safely: Routine (6+) Flyer check (1D minutes, DEX).

Maybe the designers don't have a lot of math and don't understand the probability distribution for a 2D6 roll, but a 8+ roll, with a DM of +1 or +2 means you're going to fail almost half the time with a +1, and a 1/4th of the time with a +2? How does this make sense? Are we really to believe that half the time you try to land safely, you're going to fail? And, if you're an Average Joe, that means everyone else is also failing almost half the time. That inevitably means that Grav Vehicles are falling out of the sky by the thousand every single day? How does that make sense?

And the other tasks?... you fail a routine systems check half the time? What? You shout a routine order, and half the time, your unit misunderstands? What?

Help me out here? What am I missing?
Annatar Giftbringer
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Re: MgT2 skill-level philosophy ???

Postby Annatar Giftbringer » Tue Dec 03, 2019 8:29 am

Take a look at p.56 in the core book, especially the part about task checks.
The referee should only call for checks when:
● The Travellers are in danger.
● The task is especially difficult or hazardous.
● The Travellers are under the pressure of time.
● Success or failure is especially important or
interesting.
And for those times when a check is warranted, you can always choose to take more time.
arcador
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Re: MgT2 skill-level philosophy ???

Postby arcador » Tue Dec 03, 2019 8:29 am

Check out the skill check section which will tell you when to roll for checks. Most of the mundane times it's not necessary. Checks are made when there are stakes, when there is pressure, when time is not enough. Why would anyone make a check when there is 2,8% chance of fail and insignificant consequences?

Also, if the player has the time, they can make the check one step easier (i.e. reduce difficulty with -2) if they take their time.

About the chances: https://dice.run/#/d/2d6

If the player has +2 total DM, that makes the target 6. Six is 72% chance of success. Seven is 58%. That is not even considering the extra DMs one cans tack, or the extra time they get.

Also, in Traveller is considerably easy to stack extra DMs thanks to improved software, equipment, skill chains.

---
The battledress should be a sophisticated piece of machinery. Yes, if you can rule that the checks are not necessary, but keep in mind it's extremely powerful armor.
First aid can grant more heal. Consider it as heal on other systems. Yes, you dress the wound, but does that grant any extra benefits?
It's not that you can't shout an order, but to do it in a way that inspires great confidence - there are specific rules on combat for the benefits of leadership checks (or failures). i.e. it's not just a simple order, it grants bonus.
Landing safely. Consider one takes the time to land, it drops to 4. I would use it only on dangerous situations.
Condottiere
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Re: MgT2 skill-level philosophy ???

Postby Condottiere » Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:02 am

I'd argue that Boon, Bane, and Task Chains, could be used to modify results.

Tools and time on hand.

If you have to improvise and do it immediately, difficulty changes.
Linwood
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Re: MgT2 skill-level philosophy ???

Postby Linwood » Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:29 am

Another reason to not roll for mundane checks is that it slows gameplay down. Limiting dice rolling to only dramatic situations speeds the action up.

You could say simple possession of an appropriate skill (such as Profession) nullifies the need for a mundane check.

You could also use a single task check to summarize the results of multiple activities. For example, using a single Carouse check to determine the outcome of several days’ worth of shore leave.

Feel free to let the players use good role-play to modify or even replace a skill check, especially for social checks.
Old School
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Re: MgT2 skill-level philosophy ???

Postby Old School » Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:24 pm

I agree with all the advice given. Under routine circumstances, with no time or other pressure, skill checks aren’t needed. You simply take your time and do it right, or do it over.

When you do need skill checks, the system rewards good choices involving teamwork and a careful approach.
Moppy
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Re: MgT2 skill-level philosophy ???

Postby Moppy » Tue Dec 03, 2019 5:37 pm

If you had to roll for everything, no man would ever be able to hit the urinal. Oh wait...
esmdev
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Re: MgT2 skill-level philosophy ???

Postby esmdev » Tue Dec 03, 2019 6:05 pm

If you only thing that you are considering is the skill rating then an 8+ test will be a tough roll to make consistently. However, there are a number of other modifiers that can change the results.

Characteristics can raise (or lower) the DM.
Equipment quality can raise or lower the DM or provide boons or banes.
More time can increase the DM.
Multiple characters working together can provide boon.
Leadership can provide boon.

Of course someone already mentioned that the system is designed around everyday actions like driving to work don't require a skill roll unless something unusual happens like an accident right in front of you that you want to avoid.
ShawnDriscoll
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Re: MgT2 skill-level philosophy ???

Postby ShawnDriscoll » Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:25 am

Repairman_Jack wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 7:42 am
I have a question about the MgT2 skill levels. It's made clear in the Core Rules that the designers expected characters with low skill levels (quote... average Joe's). However, this flies in the face of the typical skill rolls described in the rules. For example...

- Performing a Systems Check on Battle Dress: Average (8+) Vacc Suit
- Perform First Aid: Average (8+) Medic, EDU. The patient regains lost characteristic points equal to the Effect.
- Shouting an Order: Average (8+) Leadership check (1D seconds, SOC).
- Landing Safely: Routine (6+) Flyer check (1D minutes, DEX).

Maybe the designers don't have a lot of math and don't understand the probability distribution for a 2D6 roll, but a 8+ roll, with a DM of +1 or +2 means you're going to fail almost half the time with a +1, and a 1/4th of the time with a +2? How does this make sense? Are we really to believe that half the time you try to land safely, you're going to fail? And, if you're an Average Joe, that means everyone else is also failing almost half the time. That inevitably means that Grav Vehicles are falling out of the sky by the thousand every single day? How does that make sense?

And the other tasks?... you fail a routine systems check half the time? What? You shout a routine order, and half the time, your unit misunderstands? What?

Help me out here? What am I missing?
Mongoose Traveller is not PASS/FAIL. Referees will know how Effects are used.
lord_bosco
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Re: MgT2 skill-level philosophy ???

Postby lord_bosco » Thu Dec 12, 2019 12:30 am

I enjoy the dramatic tension die rolls produce. Die rolls should have consequences, however. If you can just roll again and again without any penalty for failure, then why bother rolling at all? I agree that the GM should only call for die rolls when the stakes are big, and he should be ready to apply the consequences of the die roll, whether they be good, bad, or ugly.

I like the Effect Results Table on page 59. Marginal success or failure should give the referee and players an opportunity to negotiate an outcome through cooperative storytelling. What are the players willing to sacrifice to mitigate a marginal failure or scrape out a marginal success?

The game gives the GM several mechanisms for affecting the probability. The GM can adjust the task difficulty level/target number, add or subtract DMs, or impose a boon or bane.

For their part, players can use timeframes and task chains to improve their results. Taking extra time with your skill check improves your chance of success. Pilots often take extra time on landings, for example. See "Going Faster or Slower" on page 60 of the Core Rulebook. Task chains are kind of like the "Aid Another" action in D&D, except you can string together multiple skill checks. Your chance of success improves when multiple team members contribute to solving the problem at hand. It also spreads the wealth of skill checks around the table and gives everybody more opportunity to get involved in determining the outcome of the game's events. Task chains are explained on CRB 60.
Reynard
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Re: MgT2 skill-level philosophy ???

Postby Reynard » Thu Dec 12, 2019 11:51 am

Can you imagine having to roll checks every minute as you casually drive down a road rather than when some ***hole just swerved in front of you?
Linwood
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Re: MgT2 skill-level philosophy ???

Postby Linwood » Thu Dec 12, 2019 11:57 am

Wasn’t there a Big Bang Theory episode on that?

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