1 question on Huscarle Fleets

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Re: 1 question on Huscarle Fleets

Postby Annatar Giftbringer » Thu Nov 21, 2019 11:41 am

Perfect, thanks!
Moppy
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Re: 1 question on Huscarle Fleets

Postby Moppy » Thu Nov 21, 2019 12:09 pm

I sometimes wonder if I sent an expedition into hostile space by nafal (powered down and drifting, or stealth ships with maybe some active stealth systems) how close they would get before being detected.

It might take 100 years but the Imps v the Zhos hasn’t changed much in that time.
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Re: 1 question on Huscarle Fleets

Postby phavoc » Thu Nov 21, 2019 1:51 pm

M J Dougherty wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 10:44 am
Somewhere in the GDW Traveller materials (might be T4 though) there is a statement that M drive only works properly close to a planetary gravity well. This is at odds with the constant acceleration formulae dating from CT days. To reconcile this we assumed that the drive works OK within a star's gravity well, and the Heliopause makes a useful in-game break point. Outside that distance the drive only provides 1/100 of the normal thrust.

You probably should work out the thrust dropoff on a constant basis if you're moving between planets, but that's more maths than anyone deserves.
That was called out for vehicles for sure in MT. Though it was retconned after the publishing of 101 Vehicles.

Honestly the more I read about this the more I see that it's a change seeking justification. Ships don't possess the capability to travel between star systems under full drive, and if they accelerate and then drift, there is no need to change the M-drive concept. There is literally nothing in an empty map hex, which is 3 Ly in size. There would be no need to maneuver because there is no where to go.

So the question comes back to why is this even necessary?
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Re: 1 question on Huscarle Fleets

Postby Moppy » Thu Nov 21, 2019 2:16 pm

phavoc wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 1:51 pm
There is literally nothing in an empty map hex, which is 3 Ly in size. There would be no need to maneuver because there is no where to go.

So the question comes back to why is this even necessary?
Because not all empty hexes are empty. Empty just means “nothing most people are interested in”.

Brown dwarf without planets (edit: any planetless star actually. They can’t scoop from stars, as far as I know)

Rogue planet kicked out of its solar system

Black hole

Misjumped wreck

Grandpa’s back yard

Deep space fuel dump and secret jump bridge

Etc

You know how you buy a road map and there’s nothing there, but actually when you walk there you find out there there is, it’s just not accessible to cars.
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Re: 1 question on Huscarle Fleets

Postby Condottiere » Thu Nov 21, 2019 3:55 pm

One atom per cubic metre might actually be quite dense.

While I certainly wouldn't use Traveller hexed star maps as a road guide in real life, I would presume that after extensive surveying, especially near the core worlds, stellar sized objects have been discovered: the hexes are empty because there isn't a (centralized) substantial gravitational well there, gigantic hydrogen furnaces being easy to identify and locate.
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Re: 1 question on Huscarle Fleets

Postby Moppy » Thu Nov 21, 2019 4:14 pm

Condottiere wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 3:55 pm
One atom per cubic metre might actually be quite dense.

While I certainly wouldn't use Traveller hexed star maps as a road guide in real life, I would presume that after extensive surveying, especially near the core worlds, stellar sized objects have been discovered: the hexes are empty because there isn't a (centralized) substantial gravitational well there, gigantic hydrogen furnaces being easy to identify and locate.
Your meaning is unclear. Are you saying all stars have planets with a port or gas giant, and therefore all empty hexes have no stars?
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Re: 1 question on Huscarle Fleets

Postby Condottiere » Thu Nov 21, 2019 4:27 pm

I'm speculating that they don't have one or more substantial gravity well(s).

How you define that, hard to say.

Possibly, no speed bumps when using jump drives across that hex.
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Re: 1 question on Huscarle Fleets

Postby phavoc » Sun Nov 24, 2019 7:26 pm

Moppy wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 2:16 pm
phavoc wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 1:51 pm
There is literally nothing in an empty map hex, which is 3 Ly in size. Th


Because not all empty hexes are empty. Empty just means “nothing most people are interested in”.

Brown dwarf without planets (edit: any planetless star actually. They can’t scoop from stars, as far as I know)

Rogue planet kicked out of its solar system

Black hole

Misjumped wreck

Grandpa’s back yard

Deep space fuel dump and secret jump bridge

Etc

You know how you buy a road map and there’s nothing there, but actually when you walk there you find out there there is, it’s just not accessible to cars.
Brown dwarfs would be on the map as a star, unless they were unmapped, which is highly unlikely in explored space.

The odds of stumbling upon a wreck light-years from nowhere are pretty darn high. So high they don't really factor except as a story plot line, which means the characters will find them despite the odds.

Secret fuel dumps are in the same category.

Space is big, and solar systems relatively small compared to the vast empty spaces between systems. Nobody is going to jump light-years away from all planetary bodies unless they have a very good reason to go there. Adventures and plot lines can be run in the same way with in the confines of a system or on the outer edges.

Also, with the game mechanics as they are (sargasso in space is an acceptable variation), a ship jumping into deep space can only expend half its fuel load if it expects to make it back. Which means deep space is only a temporary place while you wait or do whatever before your next jump. There is no need to use your m drive since there is literally no place you can go.
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Re: 1 question on Huscarle Fleets

Postby Moppy » Sun Nov 24, 2019 8:04 pm

phavoc wrote:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 7:26 pm
Brown dwarfs would be on the map as a star, unless they were unmapped, which is highly unlikely in explored space.

Also, with the game mechanics as they are (sargasso in space is an acceptable variation), a ship jumping into deep space can only expend half its fuel load if it expects to make it back. Which means deep space is only a temporary place while you wait or do whatever before your next jump. There is no need to use your m drive since there is literally no place you can go.
In the original subsector generation rules in LBB 3 you threw a dice for each map hex to see if a world (and its star) were present. If not, you left it blank. Therefore a planetless star will not be on the map.

I'm not sure if this has changed recently, but that's how it originally worked.

Realiistically everything should be mapped or you'd crash into them when jumping but one assumes the computers take this into account and the maps in the books are just the simplified versions, like a passenger train map that doesn't show all the crossings and points.

While I agree that most ships won't need a deep space maneuver drive, we are talking about exploration ships here.
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Re: 1 question on Huscarle Fleets

Postby Condottiere » Mon Nov 25, 2019 9:07 am

I can't remember how far back I suggested the possibility of curving the jump path, but I think it was stated it was straight.

I think that would mean that making a stopover in an empty hex would be likely deliberate, rather than an accident, with the exception of misjumps.
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Re: 1 question on Huscarle Fleets

Postby Moppy » Mon Nov 25, 2019 12:19 pm

Hello scout! Now when you jump we need you press the red button. What does it do? Oh it spins your ship and its generated drive bubble continuously, so that you take a curved path through jump space just like how you can curve a ball when it’s kicked or thrown. Are you rea ... oh, he deserted.
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Re: 1 question on Huscarle Fleets

Postby Condottiere » Tue Nov 26, 2019 12:39 am

Artificial gravity and inertial compensation should make it nausea free.
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Re: 1 question on Huscarle Fleets

Postby phavoc » Sun Dec 01, 2019 4:40 pm

Moppy wrote:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 8:04 pm
In the original subsector generation rules in LBB 3 you threw a dice for each map hex to see if a world (and its star) were present. If not, you left it blank. Therefore a planetless star will not be on the map.

I'm not sure if this has changed recently, but that's how it originally worked.

Realiistically everything should be mapped or you'd crash into them when jumping but one assumes the computers take this into account and the maps in the books are just the simplified versions, like a passenger train map that doesn't show all the crossings and points.

While I agree that most ships won't need a deep space maneuver drive, we are talking about exploration ships here.
There are multiple versions of the system generation tables, as well as the best one - the generator (e.g. the game master) creates the subsector to suit the gaming sessions that will be using it.

I agree that in known space all major planetary bodies and stars would be mapped.

So assuming you have the aforementioned exploration ship, and it's equipped with the newly-made-up-drive. Why, exactly, would it be exploring space light years away from anything. What would it be "exploring"? An exploration ship has a specific job function. And sending a starship out to investigate deep space equipped with a drive to explore nothing seems rather silly to me. It's cost and mass added to a ship when for 99.999% of it's missions it will never use them.

Deep space isn't like the deep ocean. It's literally nothing there, more nothing than the space between planets in a star system. I don't mind new tech and gadgets being added to the game, but there should at least be a logical purpose to things. Making up a "deep space drive" seems silly, not to mention the questions it now raises for standard M-drives. The games is already riddle with inconsistencies. Why the desire to make it worse? (this isn't directed at you Moppy). I would hope that new tech and gadgets fill in the holes and additional work makes things MORE consistent rather than less.
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Re: 1 question on Huscarle Fleets

Postby Moppy » Sun Dec 01, 2019 6:44 pm

phavoc wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 4:40 pm
So assuming you have the aforementioned exploration ship, and it's equipped with the newly-made-up-drive. Why, exactly, would it be exploring space light years away from anything. What would it be "exploring"? An exploration ship has a specific job function. And sending a starship out to investigate deep space equipped with a drive to explore nothing seems rather silly to me. It's cost and mass added to a ship when for 99.999% of it's missions it will never use them.

Deep space isn't like the deep ocean. It's literally nothing there, more nothing than the space between planets in a star system. I don't mind new tech and gadgets being added to the game, but there should at least be a logical purpose to things. Making up a "deep space drive" seems silly, not to mention the questions it now raises for standard M-drives. The games is already riddle with inconsistencies. Why the desire to make it worse? (this isn't directed at you Moppy). I would hope that new tech and gadgets fill in the holes and additional work makes things MORE consistent rather than less.
It's a sci-fantasy game with canonical space monsters[1] and ancient precursor magic. Within something the size of the Imperium, there's certainly something to require a small number of deep space exploration ships. In reality the Imperium probably has a few more than that, due to all their black projects.

There are also military applications for a deep-space drive, such as guerilla ships in the out-system, and you never know when someone will try sublight interstellar malarkey to get past your patrols.

[1] https://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Black_Ship
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Re: 1 question on Huscarle Fleets

Postby phavoc » Mon Dec 02, 2019 12:01 am

Moppy wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 6:44 pm
It's a sci-fantasy game with canonical space monsters[1] and ancient precursor magic. Within something the size of the Imperium, there's certainly something to require a small number of deep space exploration ships. In reality the Imperium probably has a few more than that, due to all their black projects.

There are also military applications for a deep-space drive, such as guerilla ships in the out-system, and you never know when someone will try sublight interstellar malarkey to get past your patrols.

[1] https://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Black_Ship
Traveller has always been more science setting than fantasy (though psionics and grandfather and his children certainly fall within the fantasy aspect).

Guerrilla ships in the outer system would, at least for Sol, be at least 100 AU out before normal drives stopped working. Let's assume an enemy jumps 200 AU into the outer system. Since there is nothing out there where is the guerrilla warfare? That label implies hiding and attacking, but it's essentially empty space, thus of no military or strategic value. Therefore there would be no fighting there. Fleet battles are going to be near something worth fighting over. Attackers always come in with what they believe is sufficient force to overwhelm the defenses. That is warfare 101. The exception, desperation, is also warfare 101. Unless there are just some very poor dice rolls, the defender is nearly always at the advantage. Traveller players, of course, would just nuke the planet and move on because there are no repercussions. But glassing worlds is not something anyone can afford to do since their own worlds are just as vulnerable to such attacks.

I never bothered with Agent of the Imperium, so the black fleets are something that I'm blissfully unaware of. And the Wiki is of no use because basically all it says is they are rumors. Which is insufficient to discuss or debate without any specificity.
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Re: 1 question on Huscarle Fleets

Postby Garran » Mon Dec 02, 2019 1:27 am

A couple of things came to mind reading the thread:

Even if you're outside a planetary/solar gravity well, you're still going to be inside the galactic one (barring a record breaking long-distance misjump), so the M-Drive still has something to 'relate' to. This has to happen to some degree, otherwise deep space fuel depots and the like wouldn't really work - and deep space fuel depots are definitely a standard feature in the setting.

The idea of a noble commissioning a larger-than-allowed ship that is under the navy's ownership/control (but with the understanding that it will be kept in the local area) is part of the background to the first naval adventure (Shakedown Cruise), so this is definitely something that happens. This is probably a better way to go if someone feels that they need the tonnage hanging around to request assistance from when the time comes: it can be spun for good PR for the noble, it gets them some brownie points with the navy, and it doesn't result in heavily-armed trouble showing up at their doorstep later.
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Re: 1 question on Huscarle Fleets

Postby Moppy » Mon Dec 02, 2019 1:29 am

phavoc wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 12:01 am
Guerrilla ships in the outer system would, at least for Sol, be at least 100 AU out before normal drives stopped working. Let's assume an enemy jumps 200 AU into the outer system. Since there is nothing out there where is the guerrilla warfare? That label implies hiding and attacking, but it's essentially empty space, thus of no military or strategic value. Therefore there would be no fighting there.
They hide there and force you to garrison the system until they run out of supply and maintenance. Which may take years.

Unless you somehow go out there and catch them. Say by using a jump drive into empty space then chasing them down with an m-drive of some type. You probably can’t catch them anyway because it takes a week to jump, but them being there must be dealt with somehow. And maybe you can catch them, since you might work out where their fuel caches are, and then you have to fight people in deep space.

Edit: Defending deep space jump bridges as well.
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Re: 1 question on Huscarle Fleets

Postby PsiTraveller » Mon Dec 02, 2019 2:00 am

So this Deep Space maneuvering system is needed now in empty hexes? How does this affect the Sindalian sector fuel dump near Theev? or the calibration points? If a ship jumps into a hex with calibration point but does not have this system what happens?
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Re: 1 question on Huscarle Fleets

Postby Moppy » Mon Dec 02, 2019 2:06 am

PsiTraveller wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 2:00 am
So this Deep Space maneuvering system is needed now in empty hexes? How does this affect the Sindalian sector fuel dump near Theev? or the calibration points? If a ship jumps into a hex with calibration point but does not have this system what happens?
It was said earlier you can use a regular drive but at 1/100 thrust. Which will be enough to use, but probably not fight at, a deep space site.
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Re: 1 question on Huscarle Fleets

Postby PsiTraveller » Mon Dec 02, 2019 2:49 am

So this did not come up in the Deep Space Exploration handbook for Reft Sector. Does this new tidbit throw all the old material, Reft material into a bit of a mess? None of the exploratory ships have the DSMS' in them.

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