What happens if 2 black globes touch?

Discuss the Traveller RPG and its many settings
Moppy
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Re: What happens if 2 black globes touch?

Postby Moppy » Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:36 pm

AnotherDilbert wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:17 pm
Sigtrygg wrote: Yes, there is a canonical example of Imperial personnel retreating inside a black globe 'shelter' when the Zhos invade.
Wouldn't that be rather silly? Just keep the "shelter" under fire and it will explode sooner or later...
Image

edit: credit to SMBC comics (www.smbc-comics.com)
Condottiere
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Re: What happens if 2 black globes touch?

Postby Condottiere » Mon Nov 11, 2019 7:07 pm

Accumulate energy, drop the shields, return serve.
Sigtrygg
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Re: What happens if 2 black globes touch?

Postby Sigtrygg » Mon Nov 11, 2019 7:52 pm

Found it - although it wasn't the Zhos.

It is in T5
The Star Marine Guards defending the Imperial Embassy
on Arden during the Fifth Frontier War retreated to a Black
Globe Safe Room when locals stormed and burned the compound.
The 100-meter diameter globe neatly sliced through
walls (and a few attackers) to envelope about a quarter of
the installation. Over the course of a month, it resisted fire,
bombs, and other attacks.
When forces from the Imperial Fleet arrived, they used a
coded laser to signal the interior that all was finally safe, but
to confirm the signal, an outside Marine tapped the rhythm
to the Marine song: tap-tap-tap, tap-tap-tap, tap-tap-tap-taptap.
The interior Marines deactivated the barrier, happy at
the prospect of eating something other than stored rations.
Moppy
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Re: What happens if 2 black globes touch?

Postby Moppy » Mon Nov 11, 2019 8:43 pm

Sigtrygg wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 7:52 pm
Found it - although it wasn't the Zhos.

It is in T5
The Star Marine Guards defending the Imperial Embassy
on Arden during the Fifth Frontier War retreated to a Black
Globe Safe Room when locals stormed and burned the compound.
The 100-meter diameter globe neatly sliced through
walls (and a few attackers) to envelope about a quarter of
the installation. Over the course of a month, it resisted fire,
bombs, and other attacks.
When forces from the Imperial Fleet arrived, they used a
coded laser to signal the interior that all was finally safe, but
to confirm the signal, an outside Marine tapped the rhythm
to the Marine song: tap-tap-tap, tap-tap-tap, tap-tap-tap-taptap.
The interior Marines deactivated the barrier, happy at
the prospect of eating something other than stored rations.
Secret code words are considered experimental at TL 16 and become generally available at TL 17.

I imagine the lyrics of the song are "**** *** marines *** ***** yea! ** *** *** *** ***** marines yea!" but that might have been Battlefield Earth. If you have not read that, don't start now.

I've actually thought about what you would say in such a situation. I suspect the enemy might know the usual songs and the defenders might be expecting it.

I would favor something culturally unique and weird enough that the enemy won't think of it. "Pizza is a vegetable" might be a suggestion.

But these guys don't have low latency communication so all their stuff might be 10 years out of date.
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Re: What happens if 2 black globes touch?

Postby AnotherDilbert » Mon Nov 11, 2019 9:18 pm

Sigtrygg wrote: It is in T5
The Star Marine Guards defending the Imperial Embassy
on Arden during the Fifth Frontier War retreated to a Black
Globe Safe Room when locals stormed and burned the compound.
The 100-meter diameter globe ...
That is removed in T5.10 where screens are actually detailed, and instead we have:
On Worlds. A Black Globe activated on a world surface or in atmosphere receives damage at a rate equal to world size plus atmosphere per turn as it absorbs ambient energy from the environment.
A Globe which is ON can be turned OFF by its operator as its first action in a Round provided the Globe absorbed no Hits in the previous Round.

So, the Black Globe would be overwhelmed by absorbing energy from the planetary environment, and it would not be possible to turn it off once activated.
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Re: What happens if 2 black globes touch?

Postby Condottiere » Mon Nov 11, 2019 9:56 pm

Image
Moppy
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Re: What happens if 2 black globes touch?

Postby Moppy » Mon Nov 11, 2019 10:01 pm

I don't have 5.10 but one of the discords I am in says there's nothing in 5.10 that prevents maneuver with a globe up if you can manage it without access to external forces. Previous editions have flat out said you can't maneuver (which I don't agree with, but has already been discussed and comes down to people's definition of "maneuver").

edit: I've got them to quote me the book and I believe the intent of this statement "The interior of a Black Globe is independent of exterior inertial frames of reference" is to mean that you can't maneuver, but I actually don't understand what that statement means.
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Re: What happens if 2 black globes touch?

Postby AnotherDilbert » Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:31 pm

Moppy wrote: edit: I've got them to quote me the book and I believe the intent of this statement "The interior of a Black Globe is independent of exterior inertial frames of reference" is to mean that you can't maneuver, but I actually don't understand what that statement means.
We're playing with relativity here. Ignore your common sense and proceed with caution.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inertial_ ... _reference

To quote the first paragraph:
Conceptually, the physics of a system in an inertial frame have no causes external to the system.
An inertial frame of reference in classical physics and special relativity possesses the property that in this frame of reference a body with zero net force acting upon it does not accelerate; that is, such a body is at rest or moving at a constant velocity.
Basically no external force can act on the interior of a globe, and without external force the entire interior system can't accelerate.

Technically we could accelerate parts of the interior system relative each other. Nothing can leave the globe, but we can probably play tricks with tethers (think yo-yo). We can't change the general speed or direction of the system, but we could make the generator hence the globe jink slightly back and forth around that course.


Note that in general relativity gravity messes this up, but we have already explicitly excluded gravity from consideration (somehow).
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Re: What happens if 2 black globes touch?

Postby Moppy » Tue Nov 12, 2019 1:18 am

Oh, not like that. I wasn’t querying the game physics because it’s magic nonsense, but what the effect on the contents of the globe was if the globe is accelerated, or the opposite happens.

My interpretation is that you can move about inside the globe but it doesn’t affect the globes position, and if the globe is moved by an exterior force you don’t notice any motion.

I wish they would write it in plain English without using pseudo-science that requires mind reading skills to understand because now we have to learn not only how physics works but also how the author thinks physics works.
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Re: What happens if 2 black globes touch?

Postby AnotherDilbert » Tue Nov 12, 2019 11:19 am

Moppy wrote: I wish they would write it in plain English without using pseudo-science that requires mind reading skills to understand because now we have to learn not only how physics works but also how the author thinks physics works.
You should perhaps read the text before you complain about it being incomprehensible or magical nonsense. There are several pages devoted to globes alone.
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Re: What happens if 2 black globes touch?

Postby Moppy » Tue Nov 12, 2019 12:21 pm

AnotherDilbert wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 11:19 am
Moppy wrote: I wish they would write it in plain English without using pseudo-science that requires mind reading skills to understand because now we have to learn not only how physics works but also how the author thinks physics works.
You should perhaps read the text before you complain about it being incomprehensible or magical nonsense. There are several pages devoted to globes alone.
Well there is no direct statement in 5.10 that you can’t maneuver with a globe up (at least that I’ve been told by people with 5.10). I assume that you probably cannot from previous editions.

There is only that line about inertial frames and I literally have no idea what that means in terms of physics, and neither does anyone else since real science can’t explain black globes. We are just guessing what the author intended it to mean. If they’d written a game rule instead it would be a lot more clear.

Edit: I don’t even think it’s clear that you whizz off into space if you activate it when in orbit. There is nothing about how long a globe on a planet takes to leave the atmosphere, just that it takes damage. And toggling the globe to leave orbit seems to be a new concept - so it probably doesn’t work like that. gravity having no effect on the interior of the globe doesn’t mean that it doesn’t affect the exterior.
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Re: What happens if 2 black globes touch?

Postby Condottiere » Thu Nov 14, 2019 6:21 pm

Classically speaking, it eats energy, but can't digest it.

That, of course, brings up the question as to how the rest of the ship systems continue to function, especially life support.

Also, as to what energizes the Black Globe.
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Re: What happens if 2 black globes touch?

Postby baithammer » Fri Nov 22, 2019 3:37 am

The Black Globe functions similar to the warp bubble, everything inside the bubble operates normally, everything outside of the bubble acts normally, but anything that hits the bubble is affected by the bubble.

Another mechanism also appears to be in effect, where the bubble isn't really absorbing energy instead it negates energy that interacts with the field and if there is any excess energy it needs to be bled off or risks overloading.

Think of a torus shaped magnet with an interior far enough away that it isn't affected by the magnetic field, a similar distance outside also would be far enough away to not be affected but if you enter the field then you're under the magnetic effect.
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Re: What happens if 2 black globes touch?

Postby Condottiere » Fri Nov 22, 2019 9:02 am

1. If two Black Globes touch or pass through each other, nothing happens, because there's nothing to suck from each other.

2. If one or both Black Globes pass through the other's Black Globe machinery and/or capacitors, the chances are they will blow up, because of the feedback loop.

3. Using armament while enveloped is pointless, since the Black Globe will absorb the energy.

4. However, it depends as to where the Black Globe absorbs that energy, or precisely, what distance from the muzzle.

5. This leads into thrusters, because using those creates velocity as long as there's some space between their effect on the universe, and the point where the Black Globe absorbs that energy.

6. Thrusters don't necessarily need to be positioned at the rear of a spaceship; you could place them centrally, and just extend a tunnel behind it.

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