Invention of Synchronised Jumps

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Pyromancer
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Invention of Synchronised Jumps

Postby Pyromancer » Wed Nov 06, 2019 8:46 pm

In older Traveller versions, attacking fleets usually didn't jump right atop their target, but at a distance, because per the jump rules, the ships arrived over the course of several hours, and you want to mass your forces before you attack.
Now MgT2e includes the option of "synchronised jumps", so fleets arrive with all ships at the same time.

Does anyone know when this technique was developed in the OTU, and by whom? It gives a tremendous tactical advantage.
Reynard
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Re: Invention of Synchronised Jumps

Postby Reynard » Wed Nov 06, 2019 8:57 pm

When someone wrote a successful add on app boosting any Jump Control +5 bandwidth. If that is all it takes, The Terrans might have created it for their fleets against the Vilani which may have been a big factor during the wars. I'm sure the Hivers did it about the same time as creating their original Jump 1 program as a grade school class assignment.
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Re: Invention of Synchronised Jumps

Postby Condottiere » Thu Nov 07, 2019 11:23 am

Synchronized diving combined with jump factor three drives.
Moppy
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Re: Invention of Synchronised Jumps

Postby Moppy » Thu Nov 07, 2019 11:36 am

They did not have synchronised jumps in the 600s, if I correct remember the plot of the MWM novel. The military forces jumping to capital,to established arbellatrix and end the emperors of the flag arrived over several days with their capitals jumping early on purpose. The arrival of capitals first was suspicious for the defenders as it looked like a combat jump.
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Re: Invention of Synchronised Jumps

Postby Old School » Thu Nov 07, 2019 3:55 pm

Pyromancer wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 8:46 pm
Does anyone know when this technique was developed in the OTU, and by whom? It gives a tremendous tactical advantage.
Synchonized jump was invented by Andrew James, Alan Welty, and Matthew Sprange in 2016.
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Re: Invention of Synchronised Jumps

Postby AndrewW » Thu Nov 07, 2019 4:50 pm

Old School wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 3:55 pm
Synchonized jump was invented by Andrew James, Alan Welty, and Matthew Sprange in 2016.
Well, it certainly has come up before then. But it was added to the second edition of High Guard.
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Re: Invention of Synchronised Jumps

Postby AnotherDilbert » Thu Nov 07, 2019 7:55 pm

It seems to hark back to MT at least:
T. Foster wrote: As promised, here's the relevant section from MTJ2, p. 24:
It appears from the rules about jump duration that ships which jump to the same destination will arrive at different times over a two day period. How then do you conduct a coordinated surprise attack on a star system if it takes a couple of days for all your ships to arrive? This has major implications for convoy, military, and other multi-ship operations. - C.B.

Good question! You have discovered what amounts to a "hole" in the rules - a hole that needs filled. These types of problems are the most fun to solve because we need to come up with an answer that does not conflict with prior Traveller material. (Contrary to what some of you may think, we haven't thought of all the implications of everything!) At any rate, after discussing this problem with Marc Miller, we offer the following solution.

When a group of starships know they have to arrive in unison, they elect to spend significantly more time at the start computing and sharing jump vector computations. This leads to a much more accurate jump exit at the other end, with the errot dropping significantly.

The formula in the Starship Operator's Manual for normal jumpspace exit is:

124 hrs + (2D x 6 hrs)
yielding a result of 136-196 hours
(that is, 5.7 to 8.2 days)

If double the jump preparation time is spent with all the affected ships in computer link via tight beam communication, use the following formula instead:

167 hours + (2D x 0.1 hr)
yielding a result of 167.2 - 168.2 hours.

Most ships will now arrive within minutes of each other, with the worst spread being up to 60 minutes apart (and this only happens in about 1 out of 20 jumps). Considering the vast distances found in a star system, starships arriving minutes apart would not spoil a surprise arrival.

Constant communication during the jump vector generate[sic] is essential for this to work, and double the normal vector generation time must be observed. But when getting there "on a dime" timewise is essential, then this technique is the key. Most civilian vessels don't need this level of schedule precision, so they don't bother. - Joe D. Fugate Sr.
http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discus ... #post48284
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Re: Invention of Synchronised Jumps

Postby Rikki Tikki Traveller » Thu Nov 07, 2019 8:55 pm

I put it at TL-13
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Re: Invention of Synchronised Jumps

Postby Moppy » Thu Nov 07, 2019 9:21 pm

If ships are synchronised for jump, and one mis-jumps, what happens? (Not the roll to see if you can sync, but the actual jump roll). What happens if it is the squadron leader?

Personally I would say the whole lot goes wrong. Got to keep the mystery of the jump drive alive, and the legend of the ghost fleet.
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Re: Invention of Synchronised Jumps

Postby AnotherDilbert » Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:12 pm

The ships arrive within a narrow window of time, but still individually, hence they travel alone in their own jump bubble.

I guess they make their own jump rolls, and hence misjump individually.
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Re: Invention of Synchronised Jumps

Postby Condottiere » Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:59 am

You wouldn't want to intrude in someone else's jump bubble, though I'd grant that they could overlap.
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Re: Invention of Synchronised Jumps

Postby Moppy » Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:33 pm

I would agree that the jump bubbles don’t intersect, but someone sets the course and all they all copy that. You would think they would check and they probably do, except when they don’t. Usually on mishap I would expect someone to not arrive. Rarely, perhaps once per regime, they might have a “titanic moment” and lose a fleet.

I wonder if some types of rapid fleet jump (the “run away from the enemy without scattering” jump) classes as something too difficult to train for? Auto rotating a V-22 Osprey comes to mind. It can, in theory, do it, but they are not allowed to practise it because it’s too difficult and dangerous. They are supposed to transition to flight mode and glide instead, but they aren’t allowed to practise transitioning at low altitude without power, either, for the same reason.
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Re: Invention of Synchronised Jumps

Postby AnotherDilbert » Fri Nov 08, 2019 1:55 pm

Jumping in tight formation is inherently dangerous, especially when all the ships arrive at the same time. Each ship will scatter slightly (~50 000 km?) on arrival so has a slight chance of emerging inside another ship.

Ships are small and space big, so the chance is very low, but still there. Do it often enough and it will happen sooner or later.
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Re: Invention of Synchronised Jumps

Postby Sigtrygg » Fri Nov 08, 2019 7:05 pm

Except no ship can precipitate inside another ship - the automatically precipitate at 100D rule and the clarification that this includes ships prevents it from happening.
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Re: Invention of Synchronised Jumps

Postby AnotherDilbert » Fri Nov 08, 2019 7:29 pm

Sigtrygg wrote: Except no ship can precipitate inside another ship - the automatically precipitate at 100D rule and the clarification that this includes ships prevents it from happening.
Yes, I had forgotten these newfangled T5 rules. Agreed, the risk I described is non-existent.
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Re: Invention of Synchronised Jumps

Postby Moppy » Fri Nov 08, 2019 7:37 pm

Is that 100d of a ship as well then? No T5 book here.

You can still appear on a collision course. I'd assume Traveller ships could change course in 100x their length. (At safe speeds, they have a week in jump to adjust their subloght velocity to destinatipn system).

Is the ship active instantly after translation? Does it take time to recover?
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Re: Invention of Synchronised Jumps

Postby AnotherDilbert » Fri Nov 08, 2019 8:00 pm

Moppy wrote: Is that 100d of a ship as well then?
Yes, at least if the other ship is larger.

Moppy wrote: You can still appear on a collision course. I'd assume Traveller ships could change course in 100x their length. (At safe speeds, they have a week in jump to adjust their subloght velocity to destinatipn system).
A small ship has a diameter of perhaps 15 m, 100D would be 1500 m. At normal ship's speeds that is a fraction of a second to react.

Moppy wrote: Is the ship active instantly after translation? Does it take time to recover?
You might experience a slight nausea, but otherwise ready, I believe. The jump drive might take some time to recover.
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Re: Invention of Synchronised Jumps

Postby Moppy » Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:03 pm

AnotherDilbert wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 8:00 pm
Moppy wrote: You can still appear on a collision course. I'd assume Traveller ships could change course in 100x their length. (At safe speeds, they have a week in jump to adjust their subloght velocity to destinatipn system).
A small ship has a diameter of perhaps 15 m, 100D would be 1500 m. At normal ship's speeds that is a fraction of a second to react.
True but they are supposed to be in formation when they start. I understand real space heading and velocity are preserved so they should at least all exit at the same speed and direction. It’s foreign objects at the jump point that worry me, but I think a military fleet may jump to a random spot to avoid minefields etc.
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Re: Invention of Synchronised Jumps

Postby Linwood » Sat Nov 09, 2019 2:13 am

AnotherDilbert wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 8:00 pm


A small ship has a diameter of perhaps 15 m, 100D would be 1500 m. At normal ship's speeds that is a fraction of a second to react.

That seems - really close. How close can two ships with jump drives activating get before the drives interfere with each other?
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Re: Invention of Synchronised Jumps

Postby AnotherDilbert » Sat Nov 09, 2019 3:42 pm

Linwood wrote: That seems - really close. How close can two ships with jump drives activating get before the drives interfere with each other?
Any mass (larger than the jumping ship) within 100D of the blocking mass, or even within 100D of the imaginary line from the jump point to the exit point, blocks the jump.

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