2nd edition rules queries (Character generation, and vehicle weapons)

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Prodromoi
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2nd edition rules queries (Character generation, and vehicle weapons)

Postby Prodromoi » Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:07 pm

I've just put together some detail on some of the rules questions that I've come up with on my first look through the rules. Unsurprisingly, character generation was the first thing I read through in depth as I did a dummy run of rolling up a character. Page numbers referred to match those in the the PDF and hardcopy. The first is a contradiction of statements, the second two are a bit more... grey.
Thoughts and comments appreciated!


1. During a character's first career term, do they get a skill roll (on the career's tables) as well as the level-0 skills from basic training?
(Assuming first career, not a re-enlistment changing careers.)
Problem: There is a contradiction in the character generation chapter of Core Rulebook 1.
Flowchart on page 10 states:
"If this is first term of Career, go through Basic Training, Otherwise, choose a skill table and roll"
While stated on page 16 (Skills and Training, para 1)
"Each career has four or five types of skill table associated with it – Personal Development, Service Skills, Specialist Skills (divided into three sub-tables corresponding to assignments), Officer Skills and Advanced Education. In each term you spend in a career, pick one of these tables and roll 1D to see which skill you increase."

Bold highlights are my emphasis. In the first excerpt "otherwise" suggests one option or the other for the first term. In the second excerpt "each" doesn't indicate any such differentiation. Which is meant to be correct? (This is not the same issue that's dealt with on the errata document on Google, where it refers to page 16.)


2. Gaining skills from Connections.
Page 17 of Core Rulebook 1 discusses "The Connection Rule"; the specifics of gaining skills are in the third paragraph:
"If an event can be linked between two Travellers in this way, then you both get one extra skill of your choice. You may gain a maximum of two free skills from the connections rule, and each connection must be with a different Traveller. For each connection you make, you may gain any skill, but cannot bring a skill above Level 3 using this rule nor may you take the Jack-of-all-Trades skill."
As written, there is no mention of any restriction on which skills can be chosen; a Drifter could choose Leadership or Advocate, skills not included within the Drifter career. I don't see that as being impossible of course, but do we know if that's the actual intention? (A follow on question would be if skills are meant to be restricted to the current career, whether they are rolled as normal or chosen, but that's only relevant if such a restriction was intended.)


3. Vehicle weapon stats, specifically Light Autocannon, seem... strange.
Core Rulebook 1 p122 gives the damage rating of the Light Autocannon (a vehicle mounted weapon of 20-25mm calibre) as 1D. I initially wondered if ground vehicles had a 'damage scale multiplier' in the same way that spacecraft do (Core Rulebook 2 p33), but it seems not so after re-checking the rules. Is the 1D damage rating for the Light Autocannon a typo? A normal assault rifle or ACR inflicts 3D damage from a much smaller calibre round (in contemporary terms effectively a 5.45, 5.56 or 7.62mm round) and that's without the consideration that most 20-25mm cannon shells have a HE or AP effect in addition to their actual kinetic energy. Three times the damage of the Light Autocannon? Really?

But what should it be? The weapon listed as 'Cannon' (effectively a MBT cannon equivalent) has 8D as a damage rating, so making the Light Autocannon 1DD would make that more powerful than a tank gun (and still capable of autofire!). So I began to think the vehicle weapon ratings were just a bit... wrong. A tank's main gun (8D) is twice as powerful as a shotgun (4D)? (Even taking blast effect into consideration, seems unlikely.)

I'm considering (if I ever use vehicle weapons in a game, which I don't actually plan to!) that I'd give the Cannon and the Light Autocannon the Destructive trait, giving that second D to the damage rating, and tone down the tank cannon's rating so that it doesn't exceed that of the Fusion Gun (of 3DD).
Garran
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Re: 2nd edition rules queries (Character generation, and vehicle weapons)

Postby Garran » Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:33 pm

I can't help with #3, but...

#1: Every game I've seen so far uses the second version (you get basic training and a roll in the first term).

#2: There are no other restrictions on the skills chosen. This is a by-design element of customization under the player's control; you can be better at the things you already know or have talents outside of the usual scope of your career.
Moppy
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Re: 2nd edition rules queries (Character generation, and vehicle weapons)

Postby Moppy » Sat Aug 03, 2019 1:16 pm

In CSC (Central Supply Catalog), the light autocannon does 6D.

This seems reasonable given 4D for a machine gun and 8D for a cannon.
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Re: 2nd edition rules queries (Character generation, and vehicle weapons)

Postby AnotherDilbert » Sat Aug 03, 2019 1:41 pm

Prodromoi wrote: 3. Vehicle weapon stats, specifically Light Autocannon, seem... strange.
Core Rulebook 1 p122 gives the damage rating of the Light Autocannon (a vehicle mounted weapon of 20-25mm calibre) as 1D.
Light Autocannon is 6D. Core, p135 & CSC, p131.

I can't find any autocannon in either MgT1 or MgT2 Core p122.
Prodromoi
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Re: 2nd edition rules queries (Character generation, and vehicle weapons)

Postby Prodromoi » Sat Aug 03, 2019 1:45 pm

AnotherDilbert wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 1:41 pm
Prodromoi wrote: 3. Vehicle weapon stats, specifically Light Autocannon, seem... strange.
Core Rulebook 1 p122 gives the damage rating of the Light Autocannon (a vehicle mounted weapon of 20-25mm calibre) as 1D.
Light Autocannon is 6D. Core, p135 & CSC, p131.

I can't find any autocannon in either MgT1 or MgT2 Core p122.
Ah, that takes care of that one nicely, thank you. I don't (yet) have CSC, so had no idea it was different in there. I feel that the CRB should match it, however. I'm curious that you've referenced page 135 from the Core book; mine (PDF and hardcopy) goes only as far as page 128 for book 1; given there's no reference on your page 122 for the weapon, we're looking at different books surely? (Mine being the MgT2 that I've just bought which arrived today.)
AnotherDilbert
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Re: 2nd edition rules queries (Character generation, and vehicle weapons)

Postby AnotherDilbert » Sat Aug 03, 2019 1:54 pm

Prodromoi wrote: 1. During a character's first career term, do they get a skill roll (on the career's tables) as well as the level-0 skills from basic training?
(Assuming first career, not a re-enlistment changing careers.)
Take your pick.

I use both skill roll and basic training. Subsequent basic trainings of one skill-0 instead of a rolled skill-1 is too mean. (In general I go with the text, rather than the flow-chart.)

The erratum does not address this, but whether you get full basic training after pre-career education.
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Re: 2nd edition rules queries (Character generation, and vehicle weapons)

Postby AnotherDilbert » Sat Aug 03, 2019 2:05 pm

Prodromoi wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 1:45 pm
I feel that the CRB should match it, however. I'm curious that you've referenced page 135 from the Core book; mine (PDF and hardcopy) goes only as far as page 128 for book 1; given there's no reference on your page 122 for the weapon, we're looking at different books surely? (Mine being the MgT2 that I've just bought which arrived today.)
I have:
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/17 ... e-Rulebook
Single book, 243 pages.

Do you have the Starter Set?

My book says:
Image
AnotherDilbert
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Re: 2nd edition rules queries (Character generation, and vehicle weapons)

Postby AnotherDilbert » Sat Aug 03, 2019 2:12 pm

Prodromoi wrote: 2. Gaining skills from Connections.
...
As written, there is no mention of any restriction on which skills can be chosen; a Drifter could choose Leadership or Advocate, skills not included within the Drifter career.
I see it as specifically limited: Any skill but Jack-of-all-Trades.
For each connection you make, you may gain any skill, but cannot bring a skill above Level 3 using this rule nor may you take the Jack-of-all-Trades skill.
It should probably be relevant to the backstory the players come up with...
Prodromoi
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Re: 2nd edition rules queries (Character generation, and vehicle weapons)

Postby Prodromoi » Sat Aug 03, 2019 2:20 pm

AnotherDilbert wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 2:05 pm
Prodromoi wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 1:45 pm
I feel that the CRB should match it, however. I'm curious that you've referenced page 135 from the Core book; mine (PDF and hardcopy) goes only as far as page 128 for book 1; given there's no reference on your page 122 for the weapon, we're looking at different books surely? (Mine being the MgT2 that I've just bought which arrived today.)
I have:
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/17 ... e-Rulebook
Single book, 243 pages.

Do you have the Starter Set?

My book says:
Image
That's correct. The starter set I have has Core Rulebooks 1 & 2, plus an adventure book. I'm rather surprised (and disappointed) that they differ.
Prodromoi
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Re: 2nd edition rules queries (Character generation, and vehicle weapons)

Postby Prodromoi » Sat Aug 03, 2019 2:21 pm

Prodromoi wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 2:20 pm
AnotherDilbert wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 2:05 pm
Prodromoi wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 1:45 pm
I feel that the CRB should match it, however. I'm curious that you've referenced page 135 from the Core book; mine (PDF and hardcopy) goes only as far as page 128 for book 1; given there's no reference on your page 122 for the weapon, we're looking at different books surely? (Mine being the MgT2 that I've just bought which arrived today.)
I have:
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/17 ... e-Rulebook
Single book, 243 pages.

Do you have the Starter Set?

My book says:
Image
That's correct. The starter set I have has Core Rulebooks 1 & 2, plus an adventure book. I'm rather surprised (and disappointed) that they differ.

(Edited to correct formatting!)
Last edited by Prodromoi on Sat Aug 03, 2019 4:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
AnotherDilbert
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Re: 2nd edition rules queries (Character generation, and vehicle weapons)

Postby AnotherDilbert » Sat Aug 03, 2019 2:31 pm

Prodromoi wrote: That's correct. The starter set I have has Core Rulebooks 1 & 2, plus an adventure book. I'm rather surprised (and disappointed) that they differ.
It's just a mistake obviously. There are more of those...
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Re: 2nd edition rules queries (Character generation, and vehicle weapons)

Postby Moppy » Sat Aug 03, 2019 3:41 pm

My core rulebok says 1D.

Pathfinder is probably the only set of RPG books I trust, because of the full (free) online reference that consolidates all the books. I have no idea how RPG publishing works and don't understand why most dont have a searachable, complete reference. It seems a bad way to make a technical document, which is what a ruleset is.
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Re: 2nd edition rules queries (Character generation, and vehicle weapons)

Postby AnotherDilbert » Sat Aug 03, 2019 4:28 pm

Moppy wrote: My core rulebok says 1D.
Which book?

May I suggest that we call the Starter books "Starter Book 1" or something like that. Referring to several different books using the same name ("Core") is just confusing.
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Re: 2nd edition rules queries (Character generation, and vehicle weapons)

Postby Moppy » Sun Aug 04, 2019 9:55 am

AnotherDilbert wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 4:28 pm
Moppy wrote: My core rulebok says 1D.
Which book?

May I suggest that we call the Starter books "Starter Book 1" or something like that. Referring to several different books using the same name ("Core") is just confusing.
"Mongoose Traveller Core Rulebook" 240+ pages.

The infomation is on page 136.

It's probably out-dated.

Sarah can't come to game club tonight because she's updating all her PDFs or putting stickers in her rulebooks - said no-one ever.

Online reference for multi-rulebook searching, or a PDF store that can auto-update documents please?

If I have to double check everything in multiple books then I need a secretary and I'm not paying for that.
AnotherDilbert
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Re: 2nd edition rules queries (Character generation, and vehicle weapons)

Postby AnotherDilbert » Sun Aug 04, 2019 12:11 pm

Moppy wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 9:55 am
... or a PDF store that can auto-update documents please?
That would presuppose that Mongoose actually updated the PDFs...
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Re: 2nd edition rules queries (Character generation, and vehicle weapons)

Postby Old School » Sun Aug 04, 2019 5:28 pm

For number 1, the text carries over from 1st edition, in which the traveller did get a skill roll in the first term of a career, but as you’ve pointed out, the flowchart clearly says otherwise.

I think disallowing the 1st term roll makes changing careers too punitive, and I like games in which the travellers are relatively high powered. So I allow the skill roll every term in a career.

I also have a house rule in which if a traveller gets a 2nd skill roll, due to promotion, commission or career event, I let them choose the table after the roll. This gives the player a little better ability to customize, and reflects that a successful term means the traveller gets some (limited) choice in their skill advancement.
Prodromoi
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Re: 2nd edition rules queries (Character generation, and vehicle weapons)

Postby Prodromoi » Sun Aug 04, 2019 6:34 pm

Old School wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 5:28 pm
For number 1, the text carries over from 1st edition, in which the traveller did get a skill roll in the first term of a career, but as you’ve pointed out, the flowchart clearly says otherwise.

I think disallowing the 1st term roll makes changing careers too punitive, and I like games in which the travellers are relatively high powered. So I allow the skill roll every term in a career.

I also have a house rule in which if a traveller gets a 2nd skill roll, due to promotion, commission or career event, I let them choose the table after the roll. This gives the player a little better ability to customize, and reflects that a successful term means the traveller gets some (limited) choice in their skill advancement.
Ah, that does help explain how the contradiction happened.

I like the house rule you mentioned. I used to use something broadly similar (though I can't remember details now) where character generation give some rolled skills and some chosen (for exactly that reason, a bit of customisability).
Old School
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Re: 2nd edition rules queries (Character generation, and vehicle weapons)

Postby Old School » Sun Aug 04, 2019 9:24 pm

Something else to keep in mind: characteristic values (and matching your strong points to the success rolls in your chosen career) are VERY important in character creation. Lucky characteristic dice rolls, or choosing a starting value other than 2D to create higher characteristic values, will also result on average in several additional skills points over the course of a career, due to positive DMs on survival and promotion rolls. Of course those characteristic DMs also carry over to skill checks in game play.
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Re: 2nd edition rules queries (Character generation, and vehicle weapons)

Postby Moppy » Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:33 am

AnotherDilbert wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 12:11 pm
Moppy wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 9:55 am
... or a PDF store that can auto-update documents please?
That would presuppose that Mongoose actually updated the PDFs...
There's been at least one update. I can see it in drivethru rpg.

But I know what you mean. They don't update as much as I'd like.
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Re: 2nd edition rules queries (Character generation, and vehicle weapons)

Postby arcador » Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:58 am

It is a mistake from an old version - during the playtest? - where vehicle scale was different than personal scale.

Wherever you got your files, ask if they have updated ones. The CRB I have from DriveThru is updated.

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