Ship Combat: The Particle Barbette

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Putraack
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Re: Ship Combat: The Particle Barbette

Postby Putraack » Wed Aug 21, 2019 2:07 am

Putraack wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 4:11 am
I think you have it all. I'd point out to your crew's targets that maybe they ought to surrender now, before they actually get zapped. My new crew was a little squicked with that weapon, and was happy to pick up a laser turret from salvage.
Disregard that last; they just cheerfully fried an Aslan crew they came across. The P-beam hit for 1000 rads twice (reduced for a standard hull), which still inflicted 8D damage + 4 END damage to all of the crew aboard. I didn't feel like rolling all of that, and just ruled the target crew dead in 2 turns of action. Since this was an ambush, the target crew had no time to put on vacc suits. I'm learning more about the Sindalians & Drinaxi old empires and their attitude towards sophont life, it seems. :shock:
Reynard
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Re: Ship Combat: The Particle Barbette

Postby Reynard » Wed Aug 21, 2019 12:04 pm

"anyone close to the firer, target and the line of fire in-between the two"

Notice it doesn't say the firing unit is affected and close to the firer are people standing on either side before the barrel. That's why the military today train soldiers not to stand near rocket launchers.

The effect of the weapon is directed away form the weapon. I really hope scientists and technicians actually do build safe weapons especially radiation types so there's shielding and the energy is directed away from the source before it starts to spread significantly. The technology to contain and direct the beam forward to a target should be sufficient.
phavoc
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Re: Ship Combat: The Particle Barbette

Postby phavoc » Wed Aug 21, 2019 2:00 pm

Radiation is going to be projected at light speed, and those particles are going to be moving at light speed AWAY from where they were created.
AnotherDilbert
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Re: Ship Combat: The Particle Barbette

Postby AnotherDilbert » Wed Aug 21, 2019 3:04 pm

Reynard wrote: "anyone close to the firer, target and the line of fire in-between the two"

Notice it doesn't say the firing unit is affected and close to the firer are people standing on either side before the barrel.
The firer is certainly close to the line of fire.
baithammer
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Re: Ship Combat: The Particle Barbette

Postby baithammer » Mon Aug 26, 2019 10:53 am

The beam is about 5 cm wide at the target for an ideal particle beam.
Moppy
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Re: Ship Combat: The Particle Barbette

Postby Moppy » Mon Aug 26, 2019 10:59 am

baithammer wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 10:53 am
The beam is about 5 cm wide at the target for an ideal particle beam.
Game background or physics?
baithammer
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Re: Ship Combat: The Particle Barbette

Postby baithammer » Mon Aug 26, 2019 1:19 pm

Physics, as 5 cm was easier to achieve while still providing enough energy at the target end.

Would be interesting to see if any improvements have occurred though.
PsiTraveller
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Re: Ship Combat: The Particle Barbette

Postby PsiTraveller » Fri Aug 30, 2019 5:29 pm

Did you apply the damage to every single member of the opposing crew? or just one person in the enemy ship?

I always applied the damage to a single enemy crewmember. Was I too lenient? (or are you just bloodthirsty?) :D

Yikes. I just read the rules again and the entire crew may well be affected by a hit. That is terrifying. With a good roll you could wipe out a crew.
Putraack
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Re: Ship Combat: The Particle Barbette

Postby Putraack » Sat Aug 31, 2019 6:08 pm

I read it as the whole crew takes the radiation damage. I didn't want to roll stats for the whole crew,so I assumed the average 7+7+7=21 damage capacity for all of them, and 8d6 damage (average 28) and 4 permanent END reduction looked like near-total crew death to me.
Reynard
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Re: Ship Combat: The Particle Barbette

Postby Reynard » Sat Aug 31, 2019 6:47 pm

This is why when I was playing in Pirates of Drinax, we made it very clear we had that particular weapon and what it could do. It was always last option. It assisted in interactive negotiations and actually saved lives. As bad as getting killed by other ship weapon types, very few want to die by radiation.
Condottiere
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Re: Ship Combat: The Particle Barbette

Postby Condottiere » Fri Sep 13, 2019 4:51 pm

One assumes radiation is deflected in all directions once the particle beam hits something solid; shielding or enough bulkheads containing it, as compared to a meson blast, which would envelope the blast area.
Sigtrygg
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Re: Ship Combat: The Particle Barbette

Postby Sigtrygg » Sat Sep 14, 2019 7:51 am

Indeed it is - the x-rays produced when the particle beam interacts with the hull will indeed spread in all directions from the point of impact.

As the particle beam cuts further into the hull the 'bloom' of x-rays will propagate further also so you will end up with a wide 'cylinder' of x-rays moving through the ship, expanding (at the speed of light) as it goes and thus effectively irradiating everything in a compartment not behind heavy shielding/machinery whatever.
PsiTraveller
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Re: Ship Combat: The Particle Barbette

Postby PsiTraveller » Sat Sep 14, 2019 11:51 am

This makes the Particle Barbette the pirate weapon of choice for capturing entire ships for salvage. One shot kills the entire crew and you send in a prize crew and throw the bodies out into space. One slightly used spaceship for the chop shop.

Brutal.

Any ship carrying it into "civilized" space would be suspect.
Of course the reverse applies. A lot of ships would be interested in getting a barbette onto their ship as pirate defense. A single shot back at a pirate could take out a pirate ship, unless the pirates were in a shielded ship and wearing suits, popping anti rad pills etc.

A terrifying weapon to be sure, and the Treasure of Sindal has the players looking for 4 of these beasties.

Coming to a new post soon, the Particle Barbette terror ship. 4 Barbettes on a ship to bake an enemy crew even on a shielded ship.
AnotherDilbert
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Re: Ship Combat: The Particle Barbette

Postby AnotherDilbert » Sat Sep 14, 2019 12:29 pm

PsiTraveller wrote: Coming to a new post soon, the Particle Barbette terror ship. 4 Barbettes on a ship to bake an enemy crew even on a shielded ship.
A Particle Barbette tops out at 1200 Rads. A shielded hull stops 1000 Rads. A hostile env vacc suit stops up to 185 Rads.

Once in 36 shots 15 Rads slips through. No big deal.

You need to do 151 Rads or more to do serious damage, that is 11 hits that rolled 12 rad damage, or 396 fired PA shots. Before the targets have the time to take anti-rad drugs...


I just ignore rad damage if the target is shielded and suited.
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Re: Ship Combat: The Particle Barbette

Postby Moppy » Sat Sep 14, 2019 12:40 pm

PsiTraveller wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 11:51 am

Coming to a new post soon, the Particle Barbette terror ship. 4 Barbettes on a ship to bake an enemy crew even on a shielded ship.
Play it "rules as written" and it irradiates the firer as well. Problem solved, no game hack or house rule needed.

Until they build a reeeeeeeally long ship with a particle beam on the nose.
PsiTraveller
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Re: Ship Combat: The Particle Barbette

Postby PsiTraveller » Sat Sep 14, 2019 2:11 pm

I've seen the arguemnt about this and the RAW says the effect extends from the firer to the target. Does not say it includes the firer, the radiation is in between the firer and target.
I just don't see where the weapon effect includes the firer. But it is a neat topic to argue about. Maybe a clarification is needed from the authors.
Moppy
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Re: Ship Combat: The Particle Barbette

Postby Moppy » Sat Sep 14, 2019 2:33 pm

PsiTraveller wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 2:11 pm
I've seen the arguemnt about this and the RAW says the effect extends from the firer to the target. Does not say it includes the firer, the radiation is in between the firer and target.
I just don't see where the weapon effect includes the firer. But it is a neat topic to argue about. Maybe a clarification is needed from the authors.
Checking core rules:
Core rules, weapon traits, radiation wrote: This effect extends from the firer, target and line of fire a distance in metres equal to the number of dice the weapon rolls for damage.
The line of fire clearly includes the far end of the weapon barrel. If the firer is within that distance of the barrel, and they are on an adventure-class ship because space damage is x10, then they get rads. edit: In fact why do I even need to say this. It says "firer" right in the text.
AnotherDilbert
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Re: Ship Combat: The Particle Barbette

Postby AnotherDilbert » Sat Sep 14, 2019 3:14 pm

PsiTraveller wrote: I've seen the arguemnt about this and the RAW says the effect extends from the firer to the target. Does not say it includes the firer, the radiation is in between the firer and target.
It says:
Radiation: When a Radiation weapon is fired, anyone close to the firer [1], target [2] and the line of fire in-between the two [3] will receive 2D x 20 rads, multiplied by 5 for Spacecraft scale weapons. This effect extends from the firer, target and line of fire a distance in metres equal to the number of dice the weapon rolls for damage. If the fusion weapon is Destructive, this distance becomes ten times the number of dice rolled for damage.
So anyone:
[1] close to the firer,
[2] close to the target,
[3] or close to the line of fire
will be affected by the radiation.

Image
PsiTraveller
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Re: Ship Combat: The Particle Barbette

Postby PsiTraveller » Sat Sep 14, 2019 3:38 pm

Simultaneous post with AnotherDilbert.
Nice graphic.

I would argue that the grey threatened area should be to the right of the firer, with the firer not threatened, for the follwoing reasons.

Radiation: When a Radiation weapon is fired, anyone
close to the firer, target and the line of fire in-between
the two
will receive 2D x 20 rads, multiplied by 5 for
Spacecraft scale weapons. This effect extends from the
firer, target and line of fire a distance in metres equal to
the number of dice the weapon rolls for damage. If the
fusion weapon is Destructive, this distance becomes ten
times the number of dice rolled for damage.


Points I see in RAW.
1: anyone close to the firer, target and line of fire in between the two receives rads. I agree the firer is close to the firer, but is not in between the firer and target. So I do not think the firer gets any rads.
The issue is that the rules say that the effect is in-between the firer and the target, so your grey area should be to the right of the firer.


2: The effect extends from the firer, target and line of fire for a number of meters. From the firer, to me at least, does not include the firer. Spraying a garden hose with a soaker nozzle does not soak the person holding the spraying nozzle. Everything forward of the nozzle gets wet, but not the person doing the spraying. Same analogy with a high pressure hose.

3: If the firer took damage I think the RAW would include that information. Having a weapon that kills the ship is not a very good weapon. The Harrier in Pirates of Drinax would kill the crew since it is unshielded.
Assume avg. 7 on damage roll * 20 * 5 is 700 rads which is 6D damage and -3 End. Suits would not save you. Pirates killed by self inflicted radiation damage.

I think the issue is the in-between aspect of the effect. That and the logic of making a weapon that kills the entire ship when used.

Edit: Thought of another analogy: List the numbers in- between 1 and 5. They are 2,3 and 4. So if the target is 5 you will hit 5 and the the numbers in-between. This does not include 1.
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Re: Ship Combat: The Particle Barbette

Postby Garran » Sat Sep 14, 2019 3:58 pm

On the rule hair-splitting front, I'm pretty sure that it would say "the firer" or "the firer and anyone close to them" if they were meant to be included.

On the game implications front, having the Harrier's primary (and only significant) weapon hit the crew with lethal radiation doses is both nonsensical and renders it useless for its intended purpose and described use, so it doesn't.

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