Hop Drive

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Subzero001
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Hop Drive

Postby Subzero001 » Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:32 pm

Hello all,

Is there an official MGT2ed write-up or should we go by what Traveller 5 states and apply it? The reason for the question is "if" a Zhodani spy got access to prototype hop drive tech from the imperium just prior to the fifth war.

https://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Hop_Drive

Thanks,
Last edited by Subzero001 on Fri Jun 14, 2019 1:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
Linwood
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Re: Hop Drive

Postby Linwood » Thu Jun 13, 2019 11:31 pm

From Agent Cottontail no doubt....

Sorry - couldn’t resist :)
Reynard
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Re: Hop Drive

Postby Reynard » Thu Jun 13, 2019 11:50 pm

There's a TL 17 Imperial world that developed it or a gift from Grandpa? I hope they had time to analyze the tactical and strategic potential. Maybe there are even more efficient jumpbreaker missiles and that sensor that helps track a ship's jump.
Subzero001
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Re: Hop Drive

Postby Subzero001 » Fri Jun 14, 2019 1:09 am

for instance: :twisted:
https://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Depot_(De_1613)_(world)

Depot (De 1613) possesses a Technology Level of TL–16 or TL-G in Hexadecimal Notation. :shock:

Common Communication technologies for this TL include: Personal holovideo and personal meson communicators.
Common Power Generation technologies for this TL include: Miniature super-batteries, collectors, and advanced Fusion+.
Common Transportation technologies for this TL include:
Land, Water & Air: Advanced gravcraft.
Space: G-Carriers & advanced interplanetary spacecraft.
FTL: Jump Drive-7 and prototype Hop Drive-1. :mrgreen:
DickTurpin
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Re: Hop Drive

Postby DickTurpin » Fri Jun 14, 2019 1:23 am

Subzero001 wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 1:09 am
Depot (De 1613) possesses a Technology Level of TL–16 or TL-G in Hexadecimal Notation.

Common Communication technologies for this TL include: Personal holovideo and personal meson communicators.
Common Power Generation technologies for this TL include: Miniature super-batteries, collectors, and advanced Fusion+.
Common Transportation technologies for this TL include:
Land, Water & Air: Advanced gravcraft.
Space: G-Carriers & advanced interplanetary spacecraft.
FTL: Jump Drive-7 and prototype Hop Drive-1. :mrgreen:
Sadly, I believe this information is an error. The Tech Level is listed as TL-15 everywhere else on this page.
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Re: Hop Drive

Postby Subzero001 » Fri Jun 14, 2019 4:26 am

http://www.wiki.travellerrpg.com/Jump_Drive/meta

If its an early prototype (jumps two levels) or prototype (jumps one level) from HG it would meet the stated TL 17 to build one?!? or even TL 16 which I think it was trying to say looking at the chart above "T5 TL Expanded Notation Correlation". (in ten years it becomes widely available 1115 in the below link) I was just trying to see if there is something MGT that's out or coming out that runs along the same lines?

https://wiki.travellerrpg.com/TL:16-18

FTL: The Hop Drive, which can cross tens of parsecs of astronomic distance is an exponential improvement over the early generation jump drive. While more advanced late generation jump drives can now broach nine parsecs, even the most early generation hop drive can cross a full ten parsecs. More advanced hop drives can cross tens of parsecs in distance.

if the Zhodani's had spy's in the skunk-works of the imperium at the Depots, it's just a barrier jump drive progression into the re-imagined "Hop Drive" jump drive which now uses less fuel and its minimum is a ten parsec's jump I believe.

on a side note I would love to know a snip-it of the two other "psionic" agency's mentioned in SOTA, did the order of the white star become a branch of NI? I hope to see them in future books :shock:
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Re: Hop Drive

Postby Condottiere » Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:35 am

It breaks Traveller, from Classic to MongoVerse.
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Re: Hop Drive

Postby Reynard » Fri Jun 14, 2019 10:54 am

Prototype is prototype. It has a long way before being commercially available. This is especially true since the drive is 500% more expensive, double tonnage, higher fuel use and only 80% efficient. The military potential of such an exponentially powerful drive system should make this the Imperium's most guarded secret. The biggest use for this on an extremely limited basis would be a super express boat network for the most important and time sensitive information.

If the Zhos were able to get this secret, they deserve it.
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Re: Hop Drive

Postby Moppy » Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:04 am

Like it's not already broken? Players and rules can't seem to agree if a Free Trader can take off from a >1g planet or not, or how it does if it can. Seems like quite a fundamental thing to be defined in a sci-fi game.

I've not seen T5 rules but I think said drive probably also needs a computer of matching tech level for the astrogation dice rolls.
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Re: Hop Drive

Postby Sigtrygg » Fri Jun 14, 2019 4:47 pm

Jump drive technology and hop drive technology are fundamentally different.
A TL9+ culture may discover the secret of jump drive, but then again they may not.

Similarly a jump culture achieving TL16+ may never discover the hop drive, while another TL16+ culture that never discovered jump drive may discover hop.

The hop drive is a thing in the 1900 era, I would hesitate to introduce it into an earlier era unless it was a special maguffin - possibly the Zhodani encounter a culture during their core expeditions that have it, or the Solomani rimward expeditions may do likewise.
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Re: Hop Drive

Postby Moppy » Fri Jun 14, 2019 5:59 pm

If hop is "higher order jump", and you got hop from nothing, wouldn't you discover jump at the same time?
Sigtrygg
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Re: Hop Drive

Postby Sigtrygg » Fri Jun 14, 2019 6:13 pm

Nope.

Hop is not a higher order jump drive. It is a completely different technological paradigm for achieving FTL travel, as are the drives at even higher TLs.

A hop drive culture may be amazed to discover a jump drive culture and have a wtf moment and then be able to reverse engineer the jump drive (see the true backstory for the Annic Nova and how the Vilani really got jump 2).
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Re: Hop Drive

Postby phavoc » Fri Jun 14, 2019 6:56 pm

Subzero001 wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 4:26 am
http://www.wiki.travellerrpg.com/Jump_Drive/meta

If its an early prototype (jumps two levels) or prototype (jumps one level) from HG it would meet the stated TL 17 to build one?!? or even TL 16 which I think it was trying to say looking at the chart above "T5 TL Expanded Notation Correlation". (in ten years it becomes widely available 1115 in the below link) I was just trying to see if there is something MGT that's out or coming out that runs along the same lines?
As others have pointed out, the technology is fundamentally different. Which brings up another fair point - even though something is technologically listed at a TL doesn't necessarily mean it can be made by another culture. The Annic Nova (classic one) introduced an alien form of jump tech that was never considered or discovered by humaniti. It would be the same if you had a culture that 'grew' their starships, or used a completely alien type of tech to make the hulls. Or perhaps even something along the lines of crystalline-based computers instead of silicon. The TL might be equivalent but all the underlying tech is completely different. With Traveller it's not as much of an issue, since for the game most races essentially have the exact tech with just different appearance/color. In other games different races have embraced entirely different tech lines.

Star Fleet Battles did a nice job of having distinct racial differences with the technology. Basic weapons, like the phaser, were the same across all races, which made sense. But then each race had it's own distinct type of heavy weapon - Feds had photon torpedoes, a couple of races had disruptors, Hydrans had hellbores and fusion beams, some races used drones, etc, etc.
Moppy wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:04 am
Like it's not already broken? Players and rules can't seem to agree if a Free Trader can take off from a >1g planet or not, or how it does if it can. Seems like quite a fundamental thing to be defined in a sci-fi game.

I've not seen T5 rules but I think said drive probably also needs a computer of matching tech level for the astrogation dice rolls.
No! Such heresy is allowed??? :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Hop Drive

Postby Moppy » Fri Jun 14, 2019 10:04 pm

Sigtrygg wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 6:13 pm
Nope.

Hop is not a higher order jump drive. It is a completely different technological paradigm for achieving FTL travel, as are the drives at even higher TLs.

A hop drive culture may be amazed to discover a jump drive culture and have a wtf moment and then be able to reverse engineer the jump drive (see the true backstory for the Annic Nova and how the Vilani really got jump 2).
OK I see it now. They are described as enhancements of jump drive (jump is a "continuous" set of "dimensions" of increasing difficulty), but I've just seen the note that says they can be developed independently.
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Re: Hop Drive

Postby WingedCat » Sat Jun 15, 2019 12:24 am

Subzero001 wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:32 pm
Is there an official MGT2ed write-up
There is soon to be. Look for the Steppehauler article in the upcoming JTAS issues. That includes MgT2 rules for a hop drive.
Subzero001 wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:32 pm
The reason for the question is "if" a Zhodani spy got access to prototype hop drive tech from the imperium just prior to the fifth war.
Canonically, OTU-wise, neither the Zhodani nor the Imperium (as a whole) had even prototype hop drive tech around the 5FW. (There might have been individuals with prototypes - possibly someone on Duke Norris's staff - but this was distinct from and hidden from both polities as a whole if so.)

The Steppehauler article posits hop drive being used some sectors to coreward (by a polity that's on the wiki but not yet on Travellermap), and explicitly states that the tech did not filter down to Regina until centuries later after Regina invented it anyway. As always, if you want to change that for YTU, go ahead.
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Re: Hop Drive

Postby Subzero001 » Sat Jun 15, 2019 12:59 am

by phavoc » Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:56 am As others have pointed out, the technology is fundamentally different. Which brings up another fair point - even though something is technologically listed at a TL doesn't necessarily mean it can be made by another culture. The Annic Nova (classic one) introduced an alien form of jump tech that was never considered or discovered by humaniti. It would be the same if you had a culture that 'grew' their starships, or used a completely alien type of tech to make the hulls. Or perhaps even something along the lines of crystalline-based computers instead of silicon. The TL might be equivalent but all the underlying tech is completely different. With Traveller it's not as much of an issue, since for the game most races essentially have the exact tech with just different appearance/color. In other games different races have embraced entirely different tech lines.
Relativistic Drive (NAFAL) → Jump Drive → Hop Drive → Skip Drive → Leap Drive → Bound Drive → Vault Drive → Six Drive → Seven Drive → Eight Drive → Nine Drive

I see where you are going with this thought but... We all got this jump drive tech from "the Ancients" some of us reversed engineered it, some stole it from others, some found it from others misfortunes, miss-jumps and crashes etc... And it is an imperfect science since its from a broken device mostly, from their theoretical understanding of it. Also from my understanding it came as such from the beginning of the games existence to the MGT2ed version of the game this way. I see how you brought in Star Trek in a comparison which do have different higher tech line since they do not come from a single source correct? I believe whoever made the "Annic Nova" did the same to a greater extent the unit that connected the two jump drives had a failure in the "Hieronymous Device" (or an advanced Nexus Linkage Device to make a jump 6 possibly) and now it is limiting it to one or the other J-drive to function not both in tandem as previously designed.(I checked both the CT edition and the JTAS 1 edition for exotic J drives, the JTAS 1 states its a standard drive and the CT says it conforms to book 2) Jump Drive → Nexus Linkage Device → Jump Governor → Advanced FTL Drives (Hop Drive or more advanced) → Hieronymous Device

https://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Hieronymous_Device

https://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Jump_Drive_History

The Jump Drive is believed to have been first discovered by the Ancients more than 300,000 years ago. With it they explored the greater part of Charted Space. At the conclusion of the Final War, the Ancients' jump technology was lost, although intact (damaged) artifacts were found later on, and reverse-engineered to create jump drives of a more primitive nature.

Thanks for the update information WingedCat, I will await this JTAS Steppehauler issue :) (humm... $25 dollars to read an article, maybe there will be a snippet at wiki about it)
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Re: Hop Drive

Postby phavoc » Sat Jun 15, 2019 5:34 pm

Solomani invented theirs independently didn't they? I'd have to go research it, but when they left Earth they found the Vilani already occupying the stars nearby.

And the Zhodani were too far removed to have gotten it from the Geonee. Not sure about the Darrians... or the Hivers.

The many versions of Traveller have played with jump tech and there fundamental difference between versions and publishers, with basically they all share the concept of putting power into your jump drive and then you go somewhere else.
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Re: Hop Drive

Postby Sigtrygg » Sat Jun 15, 2019 6:09 pm

Grandfather invented the jump drive (I have my own IMTU thoughts on that).

The Vilani explored space using STL for a few decades, while the Geonee were building a jump drive based on recovered Ancient tech (according to the Vilani). The Vilani miraculously invented the jump drive with no outside help - despite having Ancient era tech all over the place and possibly encountering Geonee scout craft (that last bit is my conjecture).

The Vilani had a larger industrial base than the Genoee and won the conflict with them, reducing them to minor status and insisting the Geonee merely copied jump tech, they didn't discover it through original research like the Vilani had.

The Vilani never managed to invent jump 2 - which makes me wonder how they 'invented' jump 1 - until a scout/explorer returned from uncharted territory with the secrets of jump 2 technology (actually they had the secret of jump 3 technology as well but they kept that and the heironymous nexus to their own family so they could become incredibly rich - I have my own IMTU theory of what became of this family too).

While the Vilani were fighting their consolidation wars other races across charted space independently invented jump drive - the Vargr and the Zhodani may well have had up to jump 3 according to some sources by the time the Vilani made their fateful encounter with Earth. The Hivers also developed their own jump technology, as did the K'kree.

The humans of earth did invent their own jump drive according to their historians, but there is that tin foil hat theory of Vegans visiting Earth from the 1940s onwards and that it was perhaps a crashed Vegan ship or even secret government collusion with them that allowed the humans of Earth to develop the jump drive. Or perhaps ethically challenged first Imperium merchants secretly visited and traded.

During the long night the Solomani encountered the Aslan who had invented their own jump drive and built an empire of sorts that could hold its own with the Terrans. It would only later come to light that the Aslan actually reverse engineered jump technology from a Terran warship from the ISW era.

So according to the Third Imperium:
Ancients invented jump drive and those strange Droyne that pop up from world to world appear to be able to make jump ships from matchsticks and duct tape.
Vilani, Solomani, Vargr, K'kree, and Hivers invented jump drives and are major races
Geonee and Aslan reverse engineered jump drives and are minor races, but you can't call an Aslan a minor race to his face and keep your face intact.
Considering the unreliable narrator basis of much Imperial propaganda - sorry library data - at the metagame level you have to question the truth behind the Vilani 'inventing' jump drive at almost the same time the Geonee were 'reverse engineering' jump drive and the conspiracy theories behind the terran jump drive.
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Re: Hop Drive

Postby Linwood » Sun Jun 16, 2019 12:15 am

I think we need an adventure set at a major interstellar science conference where proponents of all these theories start arguing about them with great passion....
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Re: Hop Drive

Postby Subzero001 » Sun Jun 16, 2019 12:48 am

Re: Hop Drive

Quote Condottiere

by Condottiere » Fri Jun 14, 2019 12:35 am
It breaks Traveller, from Classic to MongoVerse
In MGT2ed you can go all the way up to jump drive -9 in the HG book, how does a jump to 10 which is the hop drive 1 break everything? /shrug


Re: Hop Drive

Quote Sigtrygg

by Sigtrygg » Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:13 am
(see the true backstory for the Annic Nova and how the Vilani really got jump 2)
I have read the version of JTAS 1 and the CT double adventurer, are you implying that the Vilani developed the Annic Nova in OTU or YTU? Where is a link to how to find this "secret backstory history of the Vilani?"
Quote Sigtrygg

by Sigtrygg » Sat Jun 15, 2019 11:09 am
The Vilani miraculously invented the jump drive with no outside help
Some Vilani history OTU as far as I know: from "https://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Vilani"

These are some of the more important historical events that have affected this polity:

(-20000 to -18000): Ancients Final War
Ancients war machines finally run down on Vland (world).

(-10004): Vilani space exploration program begins using using sublight (NAFAL) drives.
(-9893): Vilani establish scientific bases throughout their solar (star) system.
(-9394): Vilani begin launching colony missions to other worlds and systems.
(-9310): Vilani discover intelligent lifeforms on other worlds using sublight (NAFAL) drives.
First Contact between the Tahavi and Vilani.
(-9303): Viliani discover first Minor Human Race.
First Contact between the Geonee and Vilani.
(-9235): Vilani discover the J-1 Jump Drive (from page "https://wiki.travellerrpg.com/-9235" -9235 The jump drive was discovered on Vland (Vland 1717) in -9235.)
(-5400 to -4045): Consolidation Wars
Vilani war against fringe cultures.
(-5230): Vilani discover the J-2 Jump Drive
(-5188): Vilani Bureaux (Shangarim) established. Vilani space distributed amongst bureaux.
Makhidkarun
Naasirka
Sharurshid

(-4045): Ziru Sirka founded.
The Vilani calendar starts on this date.
(-4035): Chairman of the Igsiirdi (lifetime executive leader) declared.
Shadow Emperor rules behind the scenes in a quasi-acknowledged role.
(-4014 to -2423): Pax Vilanica
(-4000): Exploration by the Ziru Sirka ceases as internal disorder intensifies.
(-3610): Shadow Emperor officially becomes the Emperor of the Stars, an absolute monarch.
(-3000): Scientific research controlled and then stopped altogether as internal disorder continues to intensify.

(-2422): First Contact with the Terrans
(-2404 to -2215): Interstellar Wars
(-2400): Terran Confederation officially at war with the Ziru Sirka
(-2219): Terran technology begins to supercede Vilani technical achievement.

(-2204): Rule of Man founded.
Ziru Sirka absorbed into the Rule of Man.

(-1776 to 0): Long Night
(-1523 to -1519): Vilani War of Liberation

(0): Third Imperium founded.

From my understanding of the word "discover"(definition of discover: To be the first, or the first of one's group or kind, to find, learn of, or observe.) implied that they found an "ancient ship" or part there of, to extrapolate / reverse engineer its function. Now things are free to be different in YTU, would love to see your time line of the YTU



from what WingedCat stated, and my understanding he/she is a writer for MGT2ed:
Re: Hop Drive

Quote WingedCat

by WingedCat » Fri Jun 14, 2019 5:24 pm

Subzero001 wrote: ↑
Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:32 pm
Is there an official MGT2ed write-up

There is soon to be. Look for the Steppehauler article in the upcoming JTAS issues. That includes MgT2 rules for a hop drive.


I have learned long ago not to support "kickstarters". So I will wait until it drops for a good discount on drivetrurpg and get the updated PDF to read the article mentioned since $25 usd per book is a bit high for my wallet atm since theirs at least five books. Since T5, "Agent of the Imperum"and MGT2ed have changed the "classic" known timeline of OTU "Canonically", would love to see the updated timeline maybe they will be in their new "Third Imperium" series.

Thanks for all the reply's on the subject

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