What remains powered on a ship after a powerplant failure?

Discuss the Traveller RPG and its many settings
Old School
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Re: What remains powered on a ship after a powerplant failure?

Postby Old School » Mon Jun 03, 2019 5:44 pm

I would expect a high level of redundancy and emergency preparedness to be the norm. We’re talking about spaceships here.

As pointed out previously, modern ship crews are well trained in restoring and rerouting power from available sources under emergency conditions. Why would we expect less of a more advanced technology?

Also, the rules allow for generic “repair parts” to be used to make emergency repairs to heavily damaged equipment. To not allow a little Macguyvering using those same repair parts would be very inconsistent.
phavoc
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Re: What remains powered on a ship after a powerplant failure?

Postby phavoc » Mon Jun 03, 2019 7:12 pm

It would be nice if there was a difference between military and civilian ships. One would expect a much higher level of redundancy and compartmentalization in a military ship since it's expecting combat and damage at some point in it's life. With, of course, an increase cost. A contractor's gotta afford their yacht after all.
Condottiere
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Re: What remains powered on a ship after a powerplant failure?

Postby Condottiere » Mon Jun 03, 2019 11:00 pm

Nothing in the design system stops this.
phavoc
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Re: What remains powered on a ship after a powerplant failure?

Postby phavoc » Tue Jun 04, 2019 5:15 pm

Nothing but the concept itself. Which means cost, space, damage processing, etc.

Should a military hull cost 50% more? Should a civilian ship take 2x damage to offset the compartmentalization aspect of a military one? Those are just two of what would be potentially a lot of questions that would need to be answered.

Ideally it's kept a high level that makes sense and broadly applies across the spectrum. For small craft it would also need to be applied. And, arguably, one could say "it's a space-ship, so all ships are built to this level", though the rules already have some call-outs on this.
AndrewW
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Re: What remains powered on a ship after a powerplant failure?

Postby AndrewW » Tue Jun 04, 2019 6:01 pm

The reinforced hull option can be used to take some of this into account.
Linwood
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Re: What remains powered on a ship after a powerplant failure?

Postby Linwood » Wed Jun 05, 2019 2:35 am

On a smaller scale, I would expect things like atmosphere monitors to have their own backup power supplies. Likely they would go into a sleep mode, waking up only when someone taps on the panel. You may not have power for the iris valve, but you’d at least be able to tell if there’s atmosphere on the other side.
Moppy
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Re: What remains powered on a ship after a powerplant failure?

Postby Moppy » Wed Jun 05, 2019 8:31 am

In my box of bits I have an old powered wheelchair motor. In my toolbox I have a cordless drill, the battery of which is sufficient to drive that motor for long enough to open a door (and much longer, in fact - drill powered wheelchairs are on youtube).

So, you should be able to power an airlock door off a hand-held battery, which means there should be an emergency one glued to the airlock. Or a manual crank with a handle. Or both. However, you can never tell with Traveller. Which is why I was looking to see if the list of things that can still be used was defined anywhere.
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Re: What remains powered on a ship after a powerplant failure?

Postby Linwood » Wed Jun 05, 2019 10:02 am

Or you could have a port on the door that would allow you to plug in an external power source.
Condottiere
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Re: What remains powered on a ship after a powerplant failure?

Postby Condottiere » Wed Jun 05, 2019 10:07 am

Image

If all else fails, use the Vargr access port.
AnotherDilbert
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Re: What remains powered on a ship after a powerplant failure?

Postby AnotherDilbert » Wed Jun 05, 2019 10:34 am

When in doubt, check CT.
CT A1 Kinunir, p15 wrote: Doors: Sliding panel doors are set in partition walls. They are not airtight and will open at the touch of a stud (if power is on), or by concerted effort (if power is off). Locks on sliding doors are for privacy only, and may be easily broken with a prybar or other tool.
lris Valves: Portals set in bulkheads are either hatchs or iris valves. lris valves are much like the aperture of a camera; they consist of a series of metal plates that slide into place to block the opening. Valves are difficult to force open once fully closed (throw 9+ to force open a closed iris valve; DM+1 if strength 10+, +2 if dexterity 10+, -3 if person is in vacc suit. Gunfire will simply lock the valve tighter), and impossible to force if open. Any strong object (metal bar or rod) placed in the valve when open will prevent full closure, and allow a partially closed valve to be opened with ease. lris valves are operated by depressing a stud on a switchplate on the wall near the valve. They are airtight when closed, and mark transition points to other bulkheaded areas, or into airlocks. As long as the ship has any power (ship auxiliary power source has not been disconnected), iris valves will close automatically when interior pressure drops. Vertical shaft openings are also iris valves. lris valves are computer controlled, and may be security doors also.
Hatches: Hinged metal doors are placed at some locations, secured by pins operated by a handwheel on the door. These hatches are not controlled by the ship's computer. There is no provision for locking hatches, but a metal rod inserted into the handwheel will jam the hatch such that it cannot be opened from the other side. Hatches may be present in floors or decks as well as in bulkhead walls.
Despite this I assume iris valves can be hand-cranked in an emergency.

I also assume, that in order to save the ship, an iris valve will do its best to slam shut regardless of any soft obstructions (like arms or legs).

Note that hatches must be closed manually to seal a bulkhead, so should always be closed.


MgT2 HG, p16, Non Enough Power, Cap'n wrote: If a ship cannot run basic ship systems at even half power, the following will happen (and the referee is free to impose other, perhaps harsher, penalties).
...
• Iris valves, cargo hatches and automatic doors will cease to function, locking in open or closed positions as they were when the power failed.


MT PM, p90 wrote: Iris valves and hatches may not be opened if there is a pressure differential (i.e., if there is pressure on one side of the portal and vacuum on the other side).
I assume the interlocking plates of an iris valve are locked into each other by a large pressure differential, hence the valve cannot be opened.

Hatches can't be opened if they swing into pressure, but can of course easily be opened if they swing into vacuum...
Moppy
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Re: What remains powered on a ship after a powerplant failure?

Postby Moppy » Wed Jun 05, 2019 10:35 am

Condottiere wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 10:07 am

If all else fails, use the Vargr access port.
When you blow up a human it goes baboon! vuff! vuff! Geddit ba-boom? Hurrhurr! Vuff! Vuff!
Moppy
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Re: What remains powered on a ship after a powerplant failure?

Postby Moppy » Wed Jun 05, 2019 1:03 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiR8h-_2wdM

Watertight door instruction video for ship passengers. Safety, operation and manual operation.

Probably going to be the same for Traveller space craft, for internal bulkhead doors.

Edit: I thought I should add, because sci-fi works under different assumptions: If the control is set to "doors closed" from the bridge, the doors still respond to local control but automatically close after the handles are released - instead of being left in the state the local operator chose (which is why you hold the handle as you pass through). Which goes counter to "the door is locked from the bridge" seen in sci-fi. Though, those are typically warships which may have a different door policy and quick-closing manual doors.
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Re: What remains powered on a ship after a powerplant failure?

Postby phavoc » Wed Jun 05, 2019 4:07 pm

I would expect most doors on a ship to be like watertight doors on cruise liners - more like regular doors, or those seen on Star Trek - level with the floor. Iris valves and hatches like on submarines or the ISS should be a rarity in Traveller.

For non-secure spaces there would be emergency methods to open a closed door from both inside and outside the room. For anything secure, like a bridge or engineering or armory, emergency access would only come from inside since you don't want intruders trying to get in that way.
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Re: What remains powered on a ship after a powerplant failure?

Postby Moppy » Wed Jun 05, 2019 4:23 pm

The regular Traveller doors aren't airtight, only the thick lines marked with iris symbols.

Although you're right that they SHOULD be.

Of course the Traveller iris will be a lot smaller and less intrusive than the 21st century hydraulic watertight door. But it's going to operate the same way. A control, a manual pump, and it may crush you if you get caught in it depending on how they set up the safety system.
phavoc
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Re: What remains powered on a ship after a powerplant failure?

Postby phavoc » Wed Jun 05, 2019 6:10 pm

Yeah, a bit of an oversight for a spaceship... every compartment door needs to be airtight for safety purposes. If they can do it on Moonbase Alpha they should be able to do it for Traveller starships.

Though I do hope any windows they put in spacestations aren't glass like Alphas' were. Being sucked out into space when the moon shakes would really suck.... pun intended.
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Re: What remains powered on a ship after a powerplant failure?

Postby Reynard » Wed Jun 05, 2019 8:03 pm

I always figure ships are divided into section usually by purpose and function each of these sections are encased in bulkheads such as cargo, flight, engineering, bridge or residential. These are the heavy, air tight walls meant to protect and/or isolate. Within these sections are rooms and corridors dividing into more specific purposes such as staterooms, medical bays and labs. With exceptions. these areas are not individually isolated and the walls are not meant for more than privacy and safety.
Condottiere
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Re: What remains powered on a ship after a powerplant failure?

Postby Condottiere » Wed Jun 05, 2019 9:50 pm

I don't recall this ever being in doubt.

Cabin sliding doors were never meant to be airtight; bulkhead doors were.
Linwood
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Re: What remains powered on a ship after a powerplant failure?

Postby Linwood » Thu Jun 06, 2019 1:59 am

I believe the CSC has a manual iris valve wrench.
NOLATrav
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Re: What remains powered on a ship after a powerplant failure?

Postby NOLATrav » Thu Jun 06, 2019 2:59 am

Condottiere wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 9:50 pm
I don't recall this ever being in doubt.

Cabin sliding doors were never meant to be airtight; bulkhead doors were.
+1

Since I can’t multiquote I’ll +1 Moppy’s comment as well - on deckplans, thick lines are airtight, thin ones are not.

At least on the old non-isometric deckplans. These new-fangled Mongoose plans are pretty but I keep going back to the 2D ones :P
phavoc
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Re: What remains powered on a ship after a powerplant failure?

Postby phavoc » Thu Jun 06, 2019 1:35 pm

Space is the most deadly place humans can be. There is no air, heat, or gravity. Submarines are a close analogy, but also they are not. Today the only people who spend long terms underwater are military personnel. Civilian submarines are designed for very short-term use. Even submarines are pretty well compartmentalized, though within each compartment there is no attempt to build redundancy into the compartment itself since it could not withstand the pressure.

Spacecraft don't have to deal with pressure issues like a submarine would. So there is no real reason a passenger cabin could not be airtight. MattS had commented a while back during the v2 days that each cabin would have self-contained life support gear (air/water filtration). That lack of a central life-support equipment section has always been a failing I thought for Traveller deckplans in my mind (it's far more efficient to centralize this sort of thing). But for this case it dovetails fine into the idea that each section would be airtight on it's own. Since people are living aboard the ships and not always able to get into a suit when there is an emergency it makes a lot of sense to have airtight compartmentalization. I believe one of the recent novels that MGT onboard a station had the same thing - the hallway/walkway area had airtight doors on both ends when there was a rupture. I only glanced at the teaser for the book so I could have that wrong.

In general it just makes a lot of safety sense to do this. Especially since most designs have eschewed lifeboats and some have argued staying aboard a ship an in emergency could be the safest thing for a crew and passengers to do. And if that's the case it would make sense to make every compartment airtight. It may not have life support gear inside, but it would provide a far larger margin of safety while rescuers worked to get to them or to restore life support.

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