Converting a Freighter for combat use

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Moppy
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Re: Converting a Freighter for combat use

Postby Moppy » Sun May 26, 2019 12:14 pm

Once you accept that the retrofit armor isn't as good as designed armor on a reinforced hull, it's not a problem. One doesn't expect it to resist spinal mounts, but providing some protection against turrets shouldn't be a problem - which is where the example of the armored VIP car is relevant. And not being in continuous combat, sacrifical armor would also prove more useful.
baithammer
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Re: Converting a Freighter for combat use

Postby baithammer » Sun May 26, 2019 1:17 pm

Moppy wrote:
Sun May 26, 2019 12:14 pm
Once you accept that the retrofit armor isn't as good as designed armor on a reinforced hull, it's not a problem. One doesn't expect it to resist spinal mounts, but providing some protection against turrets shouldn't be a problem - which is where the example of the armored VIP car is relevant. And not being in continuous combat, sacrifical armor would also prove more useful.
Jump Drives in particular are very sensitive to displacement changes and the hulls need to be sealed to operate in a vacuum so no its not simply a matter of bolting on plates; You'll need to prune back some of the hull to accommodate the armour plates.
Moppy
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Re: Converting a Freighter for combat use

Postby Moppy » Sun May 26, 2019 2:16 pm

baithammer wrote:
Sun May 26, 2019 1:17 pm
Jump Drives in particular are very sensitive to displacement changes and the hulls need to be sealed to operate in a vacuum so no its not simply a matter of bolting on plates; You'll need to prune back some of the hull to accommodate the armour plates.
In Mongoose 2 High Guard, there is an external cargo mount retrofit that requires that you re-calculate jump capacity. So long as the change is not sudden and unexpected (like, as you're powering up the jump) it seems to be fine. Maybe you might jettison the panels on the turn you do that.

I don't think vacuum sealing has ever been a problem in Traveller nor it does it come into play for various other hull modifications. Are there even rules for damaged ships bleeding air? Is this what the life support critical timer implies? edit: Hull points certainly don't affect the ability to have an atmosphere, until they hit zero and the whole ship is done.
Linwood
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Re: Converting a Freighter for combat use

Postby Linwood » Sun May 26, 2019 3:12 pm

I generally home-rule atmosphere loss by compartment hit, although I believe there is a severity level for Crew Critical hits where the ship is losing massive amounts of air. My home rules assume that atmosphere can be restored once things are patched up. I’ve been assuming the Critical Hit result means the life support systems themselves are severely compromised and cannot support sustained ship operation without shipyard repairs.
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Re: Converting a Freighter for combat use

Postby AnotherDilbert » Sun May 26, 2019 3:52 pm

From CT we have:
LBB2, p33-34 wrote:Decompression: Starships (and other vessels) depressurize their interiors before combat whenever possible, the passengers and crew resorting to vacc suits for safety and comfort.
...
Hull hits result in explosive decompression if pressure has not already been lowered. Explosive decompression kills all persons in that section unless a vacc suit is available and put on immediately. Throw dexterity to put on a vacc suit in an emergency; apply DMs of double vacc suit skill.
Moppy
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Re: Converting a Freighter for combat use

Postby Moppy » Sun May 26, 2019 5:42 pm

AnotherDilbert wrote:
Sun May 26, 2019 3:52 pm
From CT we have:
LBB2, p33-34 wrote:Decompression: Starships (and other vessels) depressurize their interiors before combat whenever possible, the passengers and crew resorting to vacc suits for safety and comfort.
...
Hull hits result in explosive decompression if pressure has not already been lowered. Explosive decompression kills all persons in that section unless a vacc suit is available and put on immediately. Throw dexterity to put on a vacc suit in an emergency; apply DMs of double vacc suit skill.
Yea, that what I remember, but there's no issues with repressuring after. The hull's assumed to be fine.
AnotherDilbert
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Re: Converting a Freighter for combat use

Postby AnotherDilbert » Sun May 26, 2019 6:29 pm

Moppy wrote: Yea, that what I remember, but there's no issues with repressuring after. The hull's assumed to be fine.
Presumably the hull has to be repaired before we can repressurise.

See Repair Parts, LBB2 p34.
Condottiere
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Re: Converting a Freighter for combat use

Postby Condottiere » Sun May 26, 2019 7:42 pm

I think that depressurization happens more in books, since cinematically you don't usually have the actors covered up, and it looks more dramatic and fatal when it does occur visually.

As regards to hull damage, either plug the hole or isolate the areas where you can't.
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Re: Converting a Freighter for combat use

Postby AnotherDilbert » Sun May 26, 2019 7:55 pm

Condottiere wrote: As regards to hull damage, either plug the hole or isolate the areas where you can't.
Absolutely, but it is rather impractical since we generally don't have airlocks between internal compartments.
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Re: Converting a Freighter for combat use

Postby Condottiere » Sun May 26, 2019 8:19 pm

Remember the scene in the Donnager where they rig an airlock tent to free the crew?

Traveller has that too,
Moppy
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Re: Converting a Freighter for combat use

Postby Moppy » Sun May 26, 2019 8:21 pm

AnotherDilbert wrote:
Sun May 26, 2019 7:55 pm
Condottiere wrote: As regards to hull damage, either plug the hole or isolate the areas where you can't.
Absolutely, but it is rather impractical since we generally don't have airlocks between internal compartments.
That's one reason why I think they've either solved depressurisation (to the point where they can handle it), or their ships are designed by mickey mouse and daffy duck and crewed by lemmings.
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Re: Converting a Freighter for combat use

Postby AnotherDilbert » Sun May 26, 2019 9:06 pm

Moppy wrote: That's one reason why I think they've either solved depressurisation (to the point where they can handle it), or their ships are designed by mickey mouse and daffy duck and crewed by lemmings.
There is an effective emergency solution: Vacc Suits.

An airlock at every bulkhead hatch would take unacceptably much space.
Linwood
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Re: Converting a Freighter for combat use

Postby Linwood » Mon May 27, 2019 12:05 am

I’ve generally assumed all spacecraft hulls have some level of self-sealing, enough to handle pinprick leaks and reduce severity of larger holes.
AndrewW
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Re: Converting a Freighter for combat use

Postby AndrewW » Mon May 27, 2019 12:07 am

Linwood wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 12:05 am
I’ve generally assumed all spacecraft hulls have some level of self-sealing, enough to handle pinprick leaks and reduce severity of larger holes.
High Guard (2nd), page 10 wrote:Starting at TL9, all hulls are self-sealing.
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Re: Converting a Freighter for combat use

Postby Reynard » Mon May 27, 2019 1:30 am

Space Air Bags....
Reynard
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Re: Converting a Freighter for combat use

Postby Reynard » Wed May 29, 2019 1:13 pm

I needed to go back to the original situation with the sparse information known.
1) A 1500 ton freighter to be converted to escort status
2) Needed as quickly as possible compared to building a comparable warship
3) Has three cargo holds, port and starboard 60 ton holds and a 120 aft (central?) hold
4) Has facilities for two 30 ton escort fighters, an interface pinnace and a fuel skimmer
5) Wish to create facilities to add 6 fighters by converting the port and starboard holds

Not much information but first thing I see is this is a very special freighter before conversion. Freighters normally don't carry fighters. This freighter is meant for special missions from the start. It would be interesting to know its weapon capacity as well as armor. Possibly the fighter capacity was an earlier upgrade.

The pinnace is reasonable for fast transfer of passengers and cargo to worlds without a Highport. The fuel skimmer as well as the pinnace implies this vessel commonly has missions away from better port facilities for fuel service and/or needs to avoid high traffic areas by wilderness refueling. Since the freighter can't use standard escort ships on missions yet needs those fighters, its missions call for very low profile. The fighters may be needed to fend off pirates prowling gas giants. Might also explain a need for hangars rather than docking space if the freighter must do battle damage repairs while continuing a mission.

Something calls for a massive increase in protection that expensive fighters plus support crews and facilities must take precedence over cargo capacity.

My call here is to have all fighters in their own docking space at 33 tons each. If you really NEED a hangar then have only one that is shared for repair and maintenance. Fighter can be swapped out as needed. For docks, you will need maybe 3 tons each from the 120t hold. The port and starboard dock now hold four more plus the original two. Each dock launches independently so all fighters can be launched simultaneously. The hangar can hold another and you would need to sacrifice 60 more tons from the aft hold for a total of eight fighters. Next you need to find more tonnage for the pilots and small craft support crew.

Not sure what's being hauled in the remainder of the aft hold but it has to be damned important!
Moppy
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Re: Converting a Freighter for combat use

Postby Moppy » Wed May 29, 2019 1:45 pm

Reynard wrote:
Wed May 29, 2019 1:13 pm
I needed to go back to the original situation with the sparse information known.
1) A 1500 ton freighter to be converted to escort status
2) Needed as quickly as possible compared to building a comparable warship
3) Has three cargo holds, port and starboard 60 ton holds and a 120 aft (central?) hold
4) Has facilities for two 30 ton escort fighters, an interface pinnace and a fuel skimmer
5) Wish to create facilities to add 6 fighters by converting the port and starboard holds

Not much information but first thing I see is this is a very special freighter before conversion. Freighters normally don't carry fighters. This freighter is meant for special missions from the start. It would be interesting to know its weapon capacity as well as armor. Possibly the fighter capacity was an earlier upgrade.

...

Not sure what's being hauled in the remainder of the aft hold but it has to be damned important!
Obviously space ninjas ... that's no freighter, but a black ops commando ship. "Interface pinnace" indeed. Is that what they call dropships now?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MV_C_Ocean_Trader

Mess with the Traveller version of that and a navy destroyer would uncloak nearby.

edit: i think that if someone has got one, whoever's coming for it is probably the original owner. I don't think this security contract is worth the money. :-)
Condottiere
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Re: Converting a Freighter for combat use

Postby Condottiere » Thu May 30, 2019 8:34 am

I think I've just resolved the issue of bolt on reactive armour: label it external cargo, and fill it in shallow racks all along the hull.
Reynard
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Re: Converting a Freighter for combat use

Postby Reynard » Thu May 30, 2019 10:44 am

Best I can come up with is extra armor is allowed but it adds to the overall displacement and you can't remove internal displacement to balance. You can rearrange internal components such as taking adjacent cargo hold to expand engineering to add more powerful engines to balance greater displacement. Seem though you have to be VERY desperate to convert rather the build from the keel up.

Or let you fighters do the work and absorb damage with your hull points.
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Re: Converting a Freighter for combat use

Postby AnotherDilbert » Thu May 30, 2019 12:17 pm

Reynard wrote: Best I can come up with is extra armor is allowed but it adds to the overall displacement and you can't remove internal displacement to balance. You can rearrange internal components such as taking adjacent cargo hold to expand engineering to add more powerful engines to balance greater displacement.
I agree nearly everything should be possible, but not necessarily easy or cheap, especially given:
Trillion Credit Squadron (MgT 1e), p16, Refitting Ships wrote:Armour and other parts of the ship integral to the hull (such as configuration or reinforced structure) cannot be changed under any refit. Those items covered under a major refit [e.g. drives] cannot be increased in size though they may be reduced.
Note that the Engineering section was fixed and separate from the Main section already in LBB2'77.

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