MGT1 Trade question

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JNJ
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MGT1 Trade question

Postby JNJ » Mon Apr 22, 2019 1:47 pm

Hi,

I am eagerly waiting for a more detailed version of trade rules for Mgt 2, meanwhile I try to use the Mgt1st edition rules.

On the freight trafic table is specified "Additionnally there is a -1 modifier per TL difference between Two worlds".

Does it apply both ways or 1 way only ? :

If current world is TL11 and Destination World TL8 = -3 to traffic
If current world is TL8 and Destination World TL11 = -3 to traffic also ?

It would seem logical to me to apply when trade is from lower TL world to Higher TL world (less demand for lower TL freight) but not the other way (Lower TL world is in demand for Higher TL freight).

It seems reflected in Mgt 2 as there is a DM-1 for tech lvl 6 or lees and a dm+2 for TL9 or more

How do those of you who used those rules apply it ? Thanks for any clarification.

JNJ
bklokis
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Re: MGT1 Trade question

Postby bklokis » Mon Apr 22, 2019 2:31 pm

As far as I can tell the inclusion of the DMs for varying TLs in MgT2 only applies to Freight availability, not Buyer availability, as in MgT1. And this may be an indication that the Mgt1 DM's were not meant to apply in both directions.

However, I personally think it makes sense that they would apply both ways since, while it might seem intuitive that lower TL planets would want higher TL items, you need to consider that there is a general lack of knowledge/skill/familiarity with that tech which would preclude a lower TL planet from investing...let's just take the extreme case as an example: what use would a TL 2 planet have for TL 15 computers since they would have very little comprehension of what they are, how they work, what they could be useful for, and most of all how to maintain the tech when it fails/breaks.

...put another way I would wager you would have a hard time selling a starship to a caveman.
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JNJ
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Re: MGT1 Trade question

Postby JNJ » Mon Apr 22, 2019 5:45 pm

bklokis wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 2:31 pm
As far as I can tell the inclusion of the DMs for varying TLs in MgT2 only applies to Freight availability, not Buyer availability, as in MgT1. And this may be an indication that the Mgt1 DM's were not meant to apply in both directions.

However, I personally think it makes sense that they would apply both ways since, while it might seem intuitive that lower TL planets would want higher TL items, you need to consider that there is a general lack of knowledge/skill/familiarity with that tech which would preclude a lower TL planet from investing...let's just take the extreme case as an example: what use would a TL 2 planet have for TL 15 computers since they would have very little comprehension of what they are, how they work, what they could be useful for, and most of all how to maintain the tech when it fails/breaks.

...put another way I would wager you would have a hard time selling a starship to a caveman.
Thanks bklokis, useful thoughts and I do agree it can justify applying both ways.

My particular problem is that I have players going from Aramis (TL11) to Reacher (TL8, 1 parsec away) with a free trader and if I apply Mgt1 trade rules, there is no freight (Freight traffic value -8) or passenger (Passenger traffic value -2) traffic at all from Aramis to Reacher.
There is some from Reacher to Aramis (traffic value 2 and 2), which is logical as it is specified in "the traveller adventure" that Reacher exports simple organic compounds.

That is reasonable of course if you add that Aramis is a non industrial desert world and Reacher is Amber zone and also non industrial !

I was just wondering why there was no traffic from Aramis to Reacher. (so my question about the TL modifier). My Travellers will have to resort to speculative trade ! All that is understandable.

If I try with Gurps Far Trader, there is slight regular freight and passenger traffic both ways(BTN 7)
If I try with T5, there is also a slight regular traffic both ways.
If I try with Mgt 2 rules, probabilities seem to give too much traffic both ways for Pop 5 worlds. IMO.
Didn't try with other set of rules...

Side question :

As far as I understand Luxury passage requires 1 stateroom (+1 Ton cargo ) per passenger, Middle passage, 1 stateroom per passenger (+100Kg cargo) also and Basic Passage can accomodate up to 4 passengers per stateroom.
All this applies to standard stateroom. Luxury steroom just add a bonus to get more high passengers.

My question is about Middle passage, it is not clear to me if it can allow 2 passengers per stateroom (basic life support cost being 1000 + 2000Cr in this case instead of 1000 + 1000Cr for 1 passenger).
From the text and plans of the free trader (bunk beds in every stateroom), I would assume that Middle passage can allow 2 passengers per stateroom ? Or is it 1 passenger max as text in Mgt 2edition core rule books seems to say ?

I am sure AnotherDilbert could enlighten me on that point. I tried to understand using his excellent xls spreadsheet for ship building but it seems My xls skill is not high enough...

Thanks for your advice.

JNJ
NOLATrav
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Re: MGT1 Trade question

Postby NOLATrav » Mon Apr 22, 2019 8:24 pm

JNJ wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 5:45 pm

I am sure AnotherDilbert could enlighten me on that point. I tried to understand using his excellent xls spreadsheet for ship building but it seems My xls skill is not high enough...


JNJ
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bklokis
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Re: MGT1 Trade question

Postby bklokis » Mon Apr 22, 2019 9:00 pm

JNJ wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 5:45 pm
Side question :

As far as I understand Luxury passage requires 1 stateroom (+1 Ton cargo ) per passenger, Middle passage, 1 stateroom per passenger (+100Kg cargo) also and Basic Passage can accomodate up to 4 passengers per stateroom.
All this applies to standard stateroom. Luxury stateroom just add a bonus to get more high passengers.

My question is about Middle passage, it is not clear to me if it can allow 2 passengers per stateroom (basic life support cost being 1000 + 2000Cr in this case instead of 1000 + 1000Cr for 1 passenger).
From the text and plans of the free trader (bunk beds in every stateroom), I would assume that Middle passage can allow 2 passengers per stateroom ? Or is it 1 passenger max as text in Mgt 2edition core rule books seems to say ?
I don't see anything in the core rules limiting Middle passage to one passenger per stateroom, I believe the language just uses one person per stateroom as a starting point. However, you can (per High Guard p21) have Double-Occupancy (1000Cr + 2000Cr for 2 passengers)...on my reading, this just lowers the quality of the Middle passage slightly for the occupants (doesn't change the Middle passage category outside of adding bunks and doubling the required cargo space.) If you go even further and cram 4 people into one room you end up in 'Basic Passage' (CR pg149) which seems to just be a cheaper, more cramped Middle passage (again additional cargo space per passenger.)

Though the info is in different places, and unless they've updated the text since the original publishing, there are sometimes 3, 4, or 5 different types of passage mentioned depending on where you look in the book. I presume these are all general guidelines of good stewardship, and if you can get someone to pay High passage prices for a double-occupancy Middle passage ticket, then good on you.
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AnotherDilbert
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Re: MGT1 Trade question

Postby AnotherDilbert » Mon Apr 22, 2019 9:38 pm

bklokis wrote: I don't see anything in the core rules limiting Middle passage to one passenger per stateroom, I believe the language just uses one person per stateroom as a starting point.
One passenger per stateroom:
MgT2 Core, p206 wrote:Middle Passage: This is ‘standard’ class. There will be a stateroom for every passenger and occasional service from the steward, but it is considered more functional than enjoyable as an experience. It requires a stateroom, 100kg of cargo, and one level of Steward per hundred passengers
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Re: MGT1 Trade question

Postby AnotherDilbert » Mon Apr 22, 2019 10:07 pm

JNJ wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 5:45 pm
I am sure AnotherDilbert could enlighten me on that point. I tried to understand using his excellent xls spreadsheet for ship building but it seems My xls skill is not high enough...
Thanks, in my spreadsheet I allocate one stateroom per passenger by default, even if that is perhaps not very clear.

Example: Here is a vaguely Free Trader-like ship:
Image

Resulting in 12 staterooms allocated, 4 for the crew and 8 for the passengers:
Image

If we wanted 1 Lux and 3 High staterooms for the high passengers, just ask for that and the standard staterooms will be decreased accordingly:
Image


We can specify Double Occupancy at the top of the spreadsheet, but that is only for crew (and not officers), resulting in 10 staterooms, 2 dual for the crew and 8 single for the passengers:
Image
Oops, Life Support is wrong, I seem to assume double occupancy for all staterooms...


You can change the number of allocated staterooms as a percentage of needed staterooms:
Image
Here we specify 110% of the needed 12 staterooms, resulting in (rounded up) 14 staterooms.

Or just specify a few extra staterooms in the passenger section under the heading "Extra staterooms".
bklokis
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Re: MGT1 Trade question

Postby bklokis » Mon Apr 22, 2019 10:17 pm

AnotherDilbert wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 9:38 pm
One passenger per stateroom:
MgT2 Core, p206 wrote:Middle Passage: This is ‘standard’ class. There will be a stateroom for every passenger and occasional service from the steward, but it is considered more functional than enjoyable as an experience. It requires a stateroom, 100kg of cargo, and one level of Steward per hundred passengers
I saw the 'standard class' language, but I read this as not a hard limit to Middle Passage, but just for the most typical 'standard class' Middle Passage...this implies you could have lower class Middle Passage with double occupancy, etc. But rereading it, perhaps double occupancy is really just a 'higher class' Basic Passage?
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AnotherDilbert
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Re: MGT1 Trade question

Postby AnotherDilbert » Mon Apr 22, 2019 10:27 pm

bklokis wrote: I saw the 'standard class' language, but I read this as not a hard limit to Middle Passage, but just for the most typical 'standard class' Middle Passage...
I consider one passenger per stateroom as Imperial default. What happens off the beaten path or in other parts of Known Space is anyone's guess.

If you want to use smaller staterooms or several passengers per stateroom you would probably have to adjust the price accordingly...
Old School
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Re: MGT1 Trade question

Postby Old School » Mon Apr 22, 2019 11:08 pm

If you have one rate for a private stateroom, and another rate for 4 people per stateroom, it certainly makes sense thst there would be something in between. Whatever that rate is isn't specified in the rules, so make it up yourself.

If you’re allowing two people per room, but charging the middle passage rate in the rules to each of them, then you’re breaking what little economic sense there is to the system.
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Re: MGT1 Trade question

Postby Condottiere » Tue Apr 23, 2019 2:10 am

Passages as advertized, might be subject to Imperium wide standards and regulations, monitored through both Starport authorities and Travellers Aid Society.
JNJ
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Re: MGT1 Trade question

Postby JNJ » Tue Apr 23, 2019 9:13 am

Thanks to all and especially to AnotherDilbert for his detailed spreadsheet explanation...much clearer to me now !

Double occupancy is indeed indicated in HG page 21 but due to the discomfort seems mainly used for crews :

"Double Occupancy
Some ships have bunks in their staterooms rather than single beds, allowing two people to share the same stateroom...Employing double occupancy on a ship does not cost anything (which is why many commercial captains insist on it) but lack of privacy for extended periods of time can quickly wear on crew not used to it."

Ont the other side as Core rules P149 indicates :

"...middle passengers can be ‘bumped’ by high passengers who arrive later – many ships will only take middle passengers if they cannot fill staterooms with high passage clients or lack enough stewards."

So clearly Luxury passengers are much more interesting to make profits (normal).
If we make the calculation, 2 middle passengers in a Sateroom would bring more profit than 1 Luxury passenger, which contradicts above quote.

I would conclude that 1 middle passenger per stateroom seems the standard, and 2 crews per stateroom most often

So a price for 2 passengers in bunk beds has to be created as suggests Oldschool. Sum of profit and cost per stateroom should be between normal middle price and luxury price...With some potential problems for extended periods of time (more than 1 jump ?) due to reduced space (should be even more potential problems for basic passengers when 4 per stateroom).

Families could be accomodated by reconfigurating staterooms (sliding panels between stateroom, communicating doors,...should be easily doable ?)

JNJ
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Re: MGT1 Trade question

Postby baithammer » Tue Apr 23, 2019 9:43 am

If we make the calculation, 2 middle passengers in a Sateroom would bring more profit than 1 Luxury passenger, which contradicts above quote.
Luxury passengers only take the staterooms when luxury ones are not available and they generally will not accept Double Occupancy staterooms without pressing need for time.

Further, the Double Occupancy staterooms won't fetch the same price as a full stateroom and you also end up with increased life support costs with two people in that stateroom. ( Hence why its mainly used for crew.)
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Re: MGT1 Trade question

Postby AnotherDilbert » Tue Apr 23, 2019 12:19 pm

As the standard ships illustrate commercial standard is one person per stateroom. Double occupancy is more of a military thing.

PCs do whatever they feel like, of course.


I assume that staterooms are double-ocupancy-capable by default, and that life support is dimensioned for that, but they are still generally used by one person, but in a pinch they can be used for two people. Anything more (Basic Passage) would be above rating and strain life support.

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