Implications of the Firmpoint to Turret conversion rule

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Re: Implications of the Firmpoint to Turret conversion rule

Postby snrdg121408 » Wed Mar 18, 2020 11:54 pm

Hello again,

Do firmpoints cost the same cost as fixed mounts?
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Re: Implications of the Firmpoint to Turret conversion rule

Postby AnotherDilbert » Thu Mar 19, 2020 12:28 am

snrdg121408 wrote: Do firmpoints cost the same cost as fixed mounts?
Hardpoints and firmpoints cost nothing.
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Re: Implications of the Firmpoint to Turret conversion rule

Postby Geir » Thu Mar 19, 2020 12:41 am

Just to roll another grenade (three actually) in here:
One thing I encountered recently doing ship designs: You can't put an armored bulkhead on a fixed mount weapon, because it has no mass. Or, alternatively, you can, but because it has no mass and the bulkhead is free... not a big point (since the former is the only logical conclusion), but: using the same logic, you CAN apply the bulkhead to a bridge, which can't be hit by a critical hit, but NOT to the zero-mass computer, which can. So, not a big deal, but a headscratcher.

Next, so is the consensus that converting two firmpoints into a barrette still eats five tons? Which makes sense, until you see that torpedo and missile barbettes on firmpoints have less capacity.

And off topic (Sorry, I've been out in the sun and it addled my brain): triple missile turret: holds 12 missiles - enough for 4 rounds? - we must assume not 36, because 12 take a ton of storage and 36 would make no sense. But then take, say a double turret: missile + sand: 12 missiles and 20 sand? or 6 missiles and 10 sand? I've been doing the latter but that's not what the rules say.

Okay back to my regularly scheduled sector work...
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Re: Implications of the Firmpoint to Turret conversion rule

Postby Jeraa » Thu Mar 19, 2020 1:27 am

Next, so is the consensus that converting two firmpoints into a barrette still eats five tons? Which makes sense, until you see that torpedo and missile barbettes on firmpoints have less capacity.
It should take 5 tons, yes. But the rules don't seem to say whether or not the firmpoint single turret or barbette actually does take up space. It should, however.
And off topic (Sorry, I've been out in the sun and it addled my brain): triple missile turret: holds 12 missiles - enough for 4 rounds? - we must assume not 36, because 12 take a ton of storage and 36 would make no sense. But then take, say a double turret: missile + sand: 12 missiles and 20 sand? or 6 missiles and 10 sand? I've been doing the latter but that's not what the rules say.
The rules say 2 things. The core rulebook says a turret with one or more missile racks holds 12 missiles. High Guard says a missile rack (not the turret) holds 12 missiles. I would go with the core rulebook here. Anything else doesn't make much sense. (Technically with High Guard being the more recent source, as well as being the book about ships, it should take precedent. But it doesn't make sense for a 1 ton turret to hold more than 1 ton of missiles.)

Likewise, the core rules say a turret with one or more sandcasters holds 20 rounds. High Guard say a sandcaster (again, not the turret) holds 12. I would go with the core rules again as well. Now, you still have a problem with a sandcaster/missile combo turret. Holding 12 missiles (1 ton) + 20 sandcaster rounds (1 ton) in a single 1 ton turret doesn't make sense. But at least as far as the core rulebook goes, that is what happens.

Personally, I prefer to say that a launcher of any type holds a single round. Anything beyond that must have dedicated magazine space accounted for (barbettes and bays being an exception). But that is a house rule.
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Re: Implications of the Firmpoint to Turret conversion rule

Postby snrdg121408 » Thu Mar 19, 2020 2:39 am

AnotherDilbert wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 12:28 am
snrdg121408 wrote: Do firmpoints cost the same cost as fixed mounts?
Hardpoints and firmpoints cost nothing.
HG 2e page 23/PDF page 24:
Small Craft
Ships of less than 100 tons have Firmpoints instead of Hardpoints. A Firmpoint on a small craft is a fixed mount (typically forward-facing, but there is no requirement for this), but can be upgraded to a single (not double or triple) turret.
The heavy fighter page 102/PDF page 103 and the troop transport page 104/PDF 105 weapons entry of firmpoints subtracting the cost of the weapon leaves MCr0.1 which is the cost and supports the entry of "...A Firmpoint on a small craft is a fixed mount...".

Further, the entry appears to contradict the idea that a firmpoint in MgT is a hardpoint.

However, the topic thread of Fixed Mounts? does say that the firmpoint entries for the heavy fighter and the troop transport should have been fixed mount.

Thank you for the reply.
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Re: Implications of the Firmpoint to Turret conversion rule

Postby snrdg121408 » Thu Mar 19, 2020 3:04 am

Hello Geir,
Geir wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 12:41 am
Just to roll another grenade (three actually) in here:
One thing I encountered recently doing ship designs: You can't put an armored bulkhead on a fixed mount weapon, because it has no mass. Or, alternatively, you can, but because it has no mass and the bulkhead is free... not a big point (since the former is the only logical conclusion), but: using the same logic, you CAN apply the bulkhead to a bridge, which can't be hit by a critical hit, but NOT to the zero-mass computer, which can. So, not a big deal, but a headscratcher.
Being a literal and unimaginative fellow in many ways my take is that any item that does not have a tonnage can not have an armored bulkhead.
Next, so is the consensus that converting two firmpoints into a barrette still eats five tons? Which makes sense, until you see that torpedo and missile barbettes on firmpoints have less capacity.
Now that leads me to another question per HG 2e each missile rack in a turret mounted on a hardpoint holds 12 missiles and on a firmpoint the missile rack can only hold 4.

Does a single missile rack turret mounted on a firm hold 12 or 4 missiles?
And off topic (Sorry, I've been out in the sun and it addled my brain): triple missile turret: holds 12 missiles - enough for 4 rounds? - we must assume not 36, because 12 take a ton of storage and 36 would make no sense. But then take, say a double turret: missile + sand: 12 missiles and 20 sand? or 6 missiles and 10 sand? I've been doing the latter but that's not what the rules say.
How can the 1 ton of turret hold 1 ton of missiles or sand canisters and still have room the for the launcher and feed mechanism?

In CT IIRC, I cannot seem to find the information today, both missile and sandcaster turrets hold a launcher, feed mechanism, and 3 reloads.
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Re: Implications of the Firmpoint to Turret conversion rule

Postby snrdg121408 » Thu Mar 19, 2020 3:42 am

Hi again Jeraa
Jeraa wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 1:27 am
Next, so is the consensus that converting two firmpoints into a barrette still eats five tons? Which makes sense, until you see that torpedo and missile barbettes on firmpoints have less capacity.
It should take 5 tons, yes. But the rules don't seem to say whether or not the firmpoint single turret or barbette actually does take up space. It should, however.
On HG 2e page 94 is the record sheet for the 20-ton Gunned Gig the weapons entry is Single Turret (Empty) Tons column = 1 and cost = MCr0.2. In the topic of Fixed Mounts? Nerhesi replied that the entry looked good which suggests that the barbette should also take up five tons.
And off topic (Sorry, I've been out in the sun and it addled my brain): triple missile turret: holds 12 missiles - enough for 4 rounds? - we must assume not 36, because 12 take a ton of storage and 36 would make no sense. But then take, say a double turret: missile + sand: 12 missiles and 20 sand? or 6 missiles and 10 sand? I've been doing the latter but that's not what the rules say.
The rules say 2 things. The core rulebook says a turret with one or more missile racks holds 12 missiles. High Guard says a missile rack (not the turret) holds 12 missiles. I would go with the core rulebook here. Anything else doesn't make much sense. (Technically with High Guard being the more recent source, as well as being the book about ships, it should take precedent. But it doesn't make sense for a 1 ton turret to hold more than 1 ton of missiles.)

Likewise, the core rules say a turret with one or more sandcasters holds 20 rounds. High Guard say a sandcaster (again, not the turret) holds 12. I would go with the core rules again as well. Now, you still have a problem with a sandcaster/missile combo turret. Holding 12 missiles (1 ton) + 20 sandcaster rounds (1 ton) in a single 1 ton turret doesn't make sense. But at least as far as the core rulebook goes, that is what happens.
The internal volume of a turret is 1 ton that has 1 ton of missiles and/or 1 ton of sand canisters for each rack and/or sandcaster how do you fit in the launchers, feed mechanisms, and all the other mechanical items?
Personally, I prefer to say that a launcher of any type holds a single round. Anything beyond that must have dedicated magazine space accounted for (barbettes and bays being an exception). But that is a house rule.
In HG 2e a single missile requires 1/12 = 0.0833333333, I'm going to round to 0.08 tons of volume with the remaining 0.003 tons acting as empty space.

In CT a launcher had 3 ready missiles per launcher which would I think make be better than 1 and be more compatible with the earlier rule set.

In a triple turret 0.08 x 3 rounds x 3 racks = 0.24 x 3 = 0.72 tons which leaves 0.28 tons for the launchers, feed mechanism, and other systems. The a single launcher appears to be 0.0933333 rounding to 0.09 tons with the remaining 0.003 being waste space.

I agree that the remaining missiles/sand canisters that cannot fit into the turret should have a dedicated magazine space.
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Re: Implications of the Firmpoint to Turret conversion rule

Postby Ursus Maior » Thu Mar 19, 2020 9:27 am

Jeraa wrote:
Tue Mar 17, 2020 9:42 pm
Common sense should apply. Do you really think it was the intention for a 99 ton craft to mount 9 missile launchers when a 100 ton craft can only mount 3? The rule are badly written in some places. A small craft fixed mount hold a single weapon, not 3.
Yes, I think that's the intention, because a weapons perform lesser when mounted on a small craft, although missiles seem to be the exception. But that Fixed Mounts can carry up to three individual weapons is straight from the rules.
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Re: Implications of the Firmpoint to Turret conversion rule

Postby AnotherDilbert » Thu Mar 19, 2020 9:43 am

snrdg121408 wrote:
AnotherDilbert wrote: Hardpoints and firmpoints cost nothing.
HG 2e page 23/PDF page 24:
A Firmpoint on a small craft is a fixed mount (typically forward-facing, but there is no requirement for this), but can be upgraded to a single (not double or triple) turret.
However, the topic thread of Fixed Mounts? does say that the firmpoint entries for the heavy fighter and the troop transport should have been fixed mount.
Yes, that is a very confusing statement. They actually mean something like "By default weapons on firmpoints are mounted on Fixed Mounts, but can also use Single Turrets".
Nerhesi wrote:
Mon Jan 04, 2016 7:53 pm
It is refering to the fact that smallcraft firmpoints can be fixed mounts or turrets. Extra clarity is given so if you use a smallcraft firmpoint fixed mount, you can still only mount 1 weapon there, not 3 as is indicated in the base rules.

Firmpoints are a type of hardpoints, neither cost anything. Fixed Mounts and Turrets cost money as per the Mount table (HG, p24).
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Re: Implications of the Firmpoint to Turret conversion rule

Postby Condottiere » Thu Mar 19, 2020 9:49 am

I'm pretty sure I caught on to the Tardis aspect of the turret quite a while back; you always have to remember to account for both the rotating machinery of the turret, and enough space for a workstation that a human operator can occupy and operate.

In regard to double firmpointed modified barbettes, High Guard states they have diminished ammunition capacity, outside of presumably a twenty five percent reduction in power requirements, so a logical assumption would be that they consume less space.
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Re: Implications of the Firmpoint to Turret conversion rule

Postby AnotherDilbert » Thu Mar 19, 2020 9:50 am

snrdg121408 wrote: Does a single missile rack turret mounted on a firm hold 12 or 4 missiles?
By HG each missile rack holds 12 rounds, or 4 rounds on a firmpoint, whether mounted on a Fixed Mount or Turret.
HG, p25 wrote:Each missile rack holds 12 missiles (missile racks on Firmpoints hold four missiles).


snrdg121408 wrote: How can the 1 ton of turret hold 1 ton of missiles or sand canisters and still have room the for the launcher and feed mechanism?

In CT IIRC, I cannot seem to find the information today, both missile and sandcaster turrets hold a launcher, feed mechanism, and 3 reloads.
The turret takes some space outside the hull.

Note that in CT LBB2 the turret itself takes no space, it's just the necessary fire control equipment that takes space and that can be anywhere in the hull not necessarily adjacent to the surface. See e.g. LBB2 p15.
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Re: Implications of the Firmpoint to Turret conversion rule

Postby AnotherDilbert » Thu Mar 19, 2020 10:01 am

Ursus Maior wrote:
Jeraa wrote: Common sense should apply. Do you really think it was the intention for a 99 ton craft to mount 9 missile launchers when a 100 ton craft can only mount 3? The rule are badly written in some places. A small craft fixed mount hold a single weapon, not 3.
Yes, I think that's the intention, because a weapons perform lesser when mounted on a small craft, although missiles seem to be the exception. But that Fixed Mounts can carry up to three individual weapons is straight from the rules.
Sorry, no:
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Re: Implications of the Firmpoint to Turret conversion rule

Postby snrdg121408 » Thu Mar 19, 2020 8:25 pm

Hello AnotherDilbert,
AnotherDilbert wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 9:50 am
snrdg121408 wrote: Does a single missile rack turret mounted on a firm hold 12 or 4 missiles?
By HG each missile rack holds 12 rounds, or 4 rounds on a firmpoint, whether mounted on a Fixed Mount or Turret.
HG, p25 wrote:Each missile rack holds 12 missiles (missile racks on Firmpoints hold four missiles).
Thank you for the clarification.
snrdg121408 wrote: How can the 1 ton of turret hold 1 ton of missiles or sand canisters and still have room the for the launcher and feed mechanism?

In CT IIRC, I cannot seem to find the information today, both missile and sandcaster turrets hold a launcher, feed mechanism, and 3 reloads.
The turret takes some space outside the hull.

Note that in CT LBB2 the turret itself takes no space, it's just the necessary fire control equipment that takes space and that can be anywhere in the hull not necessarily adjacent to the surface. See e.g. LBB2 p15.
You are correct that in CT LBB 2 the turret itself does not take up space but the required fire control does.

CT LBB 5 HG 2e omitted references to fire control and a turret is 1 ton when housing any combination of missile, beam laser, pulse laser, or sandcaster. I still have not found the source in CT that mentioned three missiles/sand canisters per launcher.

Thank you for the reply.

Update:

My 4 year old and seven year old neighbors stopped by before I could complete my reply.

MT has missile, beam laser, pulse laser, and sandcasters as having a volume of 13.5 m^3 or 1 ton.

TNE FF&S has the same turrets with an internal volume of 14 m^3 that the weapons have to fit in.

T4 FF&S is basically the same as TNE, though off the top of my head I can not recall if the volume is about 14 m^3, 13.5 m^3, or 14 m^3.

Also from discussions on multiple Traveller discussion sites the consensus was that the CT turret has a volume of 1 ton.
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Re: Implications of the Firmpoint to Turret conversion rule

Postby Jeraa » Thu Mar 19, 2020 9:24 pm

I still have not found the source in CT that mentioned three missiles/sand canisters per launcher.
Little Black Book 2 (Starships), page 32, under Reloading.
Reloading: Each launcher (sand or missile) has an inherent capacity for three missiles or canisters. This means that a triple turret with three missile launchers has a total of 9 missiles in ready position.
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Re: Implications of the Firmpoint to Turret conversion rule

Postby Sigtrygg » Thu Mar 19, 2020 10:47 pm

And then the Missiles special supplement published in JTAS added:
MISSILE STORAGE
Each standard missile rack can hold one missile ready to fire and two additional
missiles ready for future game turns. The role of the gunner in the turret is to aim
and fire the weaponry in the turret; once the missile racks and ready missiles are
exhausted, the gunner must reload them with new missiles. A gunner can load new
missiles into the racks and still operate the weaponry in a game turn.
The standard turret has room to store an additional 12 missiles in it. Once these
missiles have been used, the turret must be restocked with missiles carried elsewhere
in the ship (usually in the cargo hold).
Restocking a turret with missiles is accomplished during the game turn interphase.
If the gunner participates in restocking, he may not operate weaponry in the turret
in the next game turn. It is possible for non-gunner crewmembers who are not otherwise
engaged to perform restocking instead. One person can restock a turret in one
game turn.
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Re: Implications of the Firmpoint to Turret conversion rule

Postby snrdg121408 » Thu Mar 19, 2020 10:51 pm

Hello Jeraa and Sigtrygg,

Thank you both for locating the information I missed even though I looked through my copies of CT LBB 2 1977/CT LBB 2 1977/1981 and in JTAS 21 Special Supplement 3 Missiles.
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Re: Implications of the Firmpoint to Turret conversion rule

Postby Geir » Thu Mar 19, 2020 11:31 pm

Sigtrygg wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 10:47 pm
And then the Missiles special supplement published in JTAS added:
MISSILE STORAGE
Each standard missile rack can hold one missile ready to fire and two additional
missiles ready for future game turns. The role of the gunner in the turret is to aim
and fire the weaponry in the turret; once the missile racks and ready missiles are
exhausted, the gunner must reload them with new missiles. A gunner can load new
missiles into the racks and still operate the weaponry in a game turn.
The standard turret has room to store an additional 12 missiles in it. Once these
missiles have been used, the turret must be restocked with missiles carried elsewhere
in the ship (usually in the cargo hold).
Restocking a turret with missiles is accomplished during the game turn interphase.
If the gunner participates in restocking, he may not operate weaponry in the turret
in the next game turn. It is possible for non-gunner crewmembers who are not otherwise
engaged to perform restocking instead. One person can restock a turret in one
game turn.
Well that isn't that helpful. Or too helpful. If I'm reading this correctly, there seems to be no real game distinction between the one in the ready position, the two ready and the other 12 in the "standard turret". That makes fifteen in a turret before turn-wasting reloads are necessary in a single turret. Or if you have a triple missile rack turret, 3 per rack plus twelve more = 9 +12 = 21.
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Re: Implications of the Firmpoint to Turret conversion rule

Postby snrdg121408 » Fri Mar 20, 2020 1:48 am

Hello Geir,
Geir wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 11:31 pm
Sigtrygg wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 10:47 pm
And then the Missiles special supplement published in JTAS added:
MISSILE STORAGE
Each standard missile rack can hold one missile ready to fire and two additional
missiles ready for future game turns. The role of the gunner in the turret is to aim
and fire the weaponry in the turret; once the missile racks and ready missiles are
exhausted, the gunner must reload them with new missiles. A gunner can load new
missiles into the racks and still operate the weaponry in a game turn.
The standard turret has room to store an additional 12 missiles in it. Once these
missiles have been used, the turret must be restocked with missiles carried elsewhere
in the ship (usually in the cargo hold).
Restocking a turret with missiles is accomplished during the game turn interphase.
If the gunner participates in restocking, he may not operate weaponry in the turret
in the next game turn. It is possible for non-gunner crewmembers who are not otherwise
engaged to perform restocking instead. One person can restock a turret in one
game turn.
Well that isn't that helpful. Or too helpful. If I'm reading this correctly, there seems to be no real game distinction between the one in the ready position, the two ready and the other 12 in the "standard turret". That makes fifteen in a turret before turn-wasting reloads are necessary in a single turret. Or if you have a triple missile rack turret, 3 per rack plus twelve more = 9 +12 = 21.
The above material is for CT and was published by GDW in JTAS 21 1984 as Special Supplement 3 Missiles in Traveller and is found between pages 16 and 33.

CT does not have 12 missiles in a standard turret they only have 3 missiles and a sandcaster also has only 3 canisters. When the 3 missiles/canisters have been launched the turret has to be reloaded manually by either the gunner or crew tasked with the transfer from where the missiles/canisters are stowed. CT LBB 5 HG 1979 did have a rule for magazines that were omitted in CT LBB 5 HG 2e 1980.

Update:

Oops, I screwed up again concerning the JTAS Special Supplement 3 Missiles article. Before Donald McKinney passed away he requested a review of Special Supplement 3 Missiles. I participated and made several recommendations one of them was for the text 12 additional missiles in a standard turret. Actually I made couple of suggestions and instead of reading the section posted by Sigtrygg I remembered the the first recommendation.

1. To revert to the CT LBB 2 of three missiles/canisters in the turret.
2. Keep the CT LBB 2 three missiles/canisters in the turret and change the text to read "...store 9 additional missiles in it...."
3. Keep the CT LBB 2 three missiles/canisters in the turret and add a magazine that held an additional 9 or 12 missiles.

My apologies for another gaff.
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Re: Implications of the Firmpoint to Turret conversion rule

Postby snrdg121408 » Fri Mar 20, 2020 2:58 pm

Hello all,

Here is what I have pulled together for firmpoints from the earlier discussion and modifying the text on HG 2e page 23/PDF 24:

Small Craft
Ships of less than 100 tons have Firmpoints instead of Hardpoints. A Firmpoint on a small craft may mount a single weapon fixed mount (typically forward-facing, but there is no requirement for this), that can be upgraded to a single weapon turret or a barbette.

Ships from 10 to < 35 tons may have one Firmpoint
Ships from 35 to 70 tons may have two Firmpoints
Ships > 70 to 99 tons may have three Firmpoints
Ships >= 100 tons use Hardpoints

A single weapon turret consumes 1 ton
A barbette consumes 5 tons

A weapon mounted upon a Firmpoint has the following changes applied to it.

• Weapons of Medium range or less are reduced to Adjacent range.
• Weapons of greater range are reduced to Close range.
• A weapon on a Firmpoint may not have its range increased beyond Close by any means.
• Power requirements of the weapon are reduced by 25% (rounding up).
• Barbettes consume two Firmpoints.

How far off am I on this one?

Update added "from the earlier discussion"
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Re: Implications of the Firmpoint to Turret conversion rule

Postby Annatar Giftbringer » Fri Mar 20, 2020 3:11 pm

Sounds correct to me!

Also, firmpoint-mounted missile and torpedo launchers have reduced payloads.

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