High Efficiency Batteries for Jump

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AnotherDilbert
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Re: High Efficiency Batteries for Jump

Postby AnotherDilbert » Sun Apr 21, 2019 1:53 pm

Sigtrygg wrote:
Sun Apr 21, 2019 1:42 pm
Sorry, since you want to be pedantic, they don't need hydrogen fuel and therefore do not use hydrogen to create a hydrogen filled jump bubble :)
If we absolutely need hydrogen to blow up the jump bubble:
AnotherDilbert wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 9:46 pm
With "enough" energy available from the AM power plant hydrogen could be synthesised, if necessary?
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Re: High Efficiency Batteries for Jump

Postby Moppy » Sun Apr 21, 2019 1:54 pm

Sigtrygg wrote:
Sun Apr 21, 2019 1:42 pm
Sorry, since you want to be pedantic, they don't need hydrogen fuel and therefore do not use hydrogen to create a hydrogen filled jump bubble :)
Being super pedantic, if you just use it to inflate a bubble, is it fuel? :-)

I assume fuel is converted into energy somehow and I wouldn't consider an airship gasbag to be fuel.
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Re: High Efficiency Batteries for Jump

Postby Reynard » Sun Apr 21, 2019 10:46 pm

"I notice an xboat can jump a 300 ton cargo module one parsec and costs ~ 30 MCr

I'm looking at the x-boat stats and it's listed having a 26.5 t cargo capacity. Where is a 300 ton modular space? I'm assuming you meant exterior cargo mounts which will cost CR. 300,000 plus the cost of the cargo shell (module?) itself. Is it worth it compared to the versatility of a trader?

I have designed freighters that are stripped to the bone and no maneuver ability like an x-boat and must be retrieved by tugs at the destination essentially limited to a single two way trade route. With the information from this topic, I may have to redesign using HEBs and cutting back on the fusion plant since it's not needed to produce energy for a jump.
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Re: High Efficiency Batteries for Jump

Postby Subzero001 » Mon Apr 22, 2019 2:42 am

Hi AnotherDilbert thanks for the reference:

I don't remember where I saw it while we made ships in MGT 1e I believe it was in a supplement, it ticked our group off since the unit dropped its black globe generator and jumped with "no normal hydrogen bubble" so we couldn't trace it! We had the GM show us the ship after the game and where it said it could jump from a bgg alone (that is why I still remember it vaguely), but here from T5 which from what MGT 2e is trying in complying compatibility with under "Black Globe options" ("It follows that any event against a Black Globe which sends hits to the Jump Drive Capacitors is the equivalent of fuel and can also drive a jump") from T5 page 401, in my mind that is saying its equivalent to the "exotic particles" needed for a jump without a "normal hydrogen filled" bubble. From my understanding this is the "New and Revised Canon" that we should be going by until "revised" again. What I was saying previously is normally you need a hydrogen filled bubble to jump but they have added "exotic particles" to the mix in MGT 2e which does the same job as the "normal hydrogen filled" bubble.
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Re: High Efficiency Batteries for Jump

Postby baithammer » Mon Apr 22, 2019 4:33 am

The Jump drive reference in MGT 2ed High Guard is with capacitors and power, it doesn't replace the hydrogen fuel requirement. ( Collector is an exception trading no fuel for longer downtime.)
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Re: High Efficiency Batteries for Jump

Postby Subzero001 » Mon Apr 22, 2019 6:25 am

reference MGT HG 2e:
"A jump drive will have capacitors equal to 20% of its size in tons. Additional capacitors may be purchased at a cost of MCr3 per ton." page 34 " the capacitors can be discharged. For every combat round the black globe generator is switched off, the capacitors will discharge an amount of damage equal to 1% of the ship’s total tonnage multiplied by 10% of the tonnage of the ship’s power plant." page 34 "Jump Drive: In order to use the jump drive, the ship requires a number of Power points equal to 10% of the hull’s total tonnage multiplied by the maximum jump number the drive is capable of." page 15

they have taken the reduction in jump-drive size and power-plant size it you build it a high tech level as well from 1e :cry: but things have to be cut I guess.

the fuel requirement in the normal way of jumping is to overclock the "power generator" to provide the "power points" to jump and a hydrogen bubble to help it slip into the alternate universe for a time.

from these above passages I personally would add additional capacitors to my jump drive as a safety before doing this, now assuming that the black globe generator is still charging the "jump drive capacitors" and has the required "exotic particles" that MGT 2e requires for jumping per what they were compiling with being compatible with T5 it still acts as the required "fuel" to jump. While MGT HG 2e doesn't state the options in the same way that T5 does, it is implying that it can jump when the capacitors are capable of jumping when it hits the required power point threshold for "power" if the "exotic particles" are there from MGT required.

with the High Efficiency Batteries for Jump, a collector "station" could be installed in a system or systems along a route and the battery's charged with the "exotic particles and charge for jump", swapped out with the used battery from the incoming ship while its changing cargo and it can leave when ready to jump/fold at its convenience. Since people are having issues using the older term of "jump" with a non hydrogen fuel required ship. We can call it an alternate way of jump/folding? exotic particles + required power = jump/fold
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Re: High Efficiency Batteries for Jump

Postby baithammer » Mon Apr 22, 2019 7:24 am

One little snag with using a collector as a power source.
collectors
cannot be used for normal ship operations.
As for interoperability between T5 and Mgt 2ed, I believe the concepts and certain mechanics work but still have divergent specifics.
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Re: High Efficiency Batteries for Jump

Postby AnotherDilbert » Mon Apr 22, 2019 8:16 am

Subzero001 wrote: ... but here from T5 which from what MGT 2e is trying in complying compatibility with under "Black Globe options" ("It follows that any event against a Black Globe which sends hits to the Jump Drive Capacitors is the equivalent of fuel and can also drive a jump") from T5 page 401, in my mind that is saying its equivalent to the "exotic particles" needed for a jump without a "normal hydrogen filled" bubble.
I checked T5.09; Yes you can jump without fuel, hence ships will never need jump fuel at high TLs. Just toss a few nukes overboard, absorb the resulting energy with a BG and off you go...

Silly, but unfortunately true (in T5).
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Re: High Efficiency Batteries for Jump

Postby AnotherDilbert » Mon Apr 22, 2019 8:31 am

Subzero001 wrote: reference MGT HG 2e:
"A jump drive will have capacitors equal to 20% of its size in tons. Additional capacitors may be purchased at a cost of MCr3 per ton." page 34 " the capacitors can be discharged. For every combat round the black globe generator is switched off, the capacitors will discharge an amount of damage equal to 1% of the ship’s total tonnage multiplied by 10% of the tonnage of the ship’s power plant." page 34 "Jump Drive: In order to use the jump drive, the ship requires a number of Power points equal to 10% of the hull’s total tonnage multiplied by the maximum jump number the drive is capable of." page 15
In MgT2 you need both Power and Fuel to jump. The Power requirement (HG, p15) is in addition to the fuel requirement (HG, p17).

Note that "damage point" capacitors are not High Efficiency Batteries, and there is no direct conversion between "damage points" and Power points specified.
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Re: High Efficiency Batteries for Jump

Postby Reynard » Mon Apr 22, 2019 10:37 am

"with the High Efficiency Batteries for Jump, a collector "station" could be installed in a system or systems along a route and the battery's charged with the "exotic particles and charge for jump", swapped out with the used battery from the incoming ship while its changing cargo and it can leave when ready to jump/fold at its convenience."

In the Worldgen Basics section in T5 there is a chart showing what fuels are available at each starport class. If the A or B starports are also tech level 14+ they will provide Collector energy.
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Re: High Efficiency Batteries for Jump

Postby AnotherDilbert » Mon Apr 22, 2019 11:04 am

Reynard wrote: In the Worldgen Basics section in T5 there is a chart showing what fuels are available at each starport class. If the A or B starports are also tech level 14+ they will provide Collector energy.
As clarified in the Fuel Costs and Fittings table on p297, that is replacement collector canopies, not charged collectors.
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Re: High Efficiency Batteries for Jump

Postby Reynard » Mon Apr 22, 2019 11:30 am

I was reading that as a canopy's worth of a charge.
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Re: High Efficiency Batteries for Jump

Postby AnotherDilbert » Mon Apr 22, 2019 3:03 pm

Reynard wrote: I was reading that as a canopy's worth of a charge.
Note the cost (p297): Half of the collector, for a Free Trader it would be MCr 5, far too much for a refuel.

The canopy degrades and needs to be replaced every few years (p384), hence the need for replacement canopies.
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Re: High Efficiency Batteries for Jump

Postby Reynard » Mon Apr 22, 2019 7:40 pm

OH, OH, OH! Epiphany (a moment of sudden revelation or insight) kicks me and yes, you can't recharge a collector system from another source, you already have a big advantage being able to get 'free' fuel at the cost of a little more time. Collector systems in T5 (and maybe Mongoose/OTU) are common enough that there's a manufacturing base to produce and distribute the degradable canopy at a profit. TL 14+ A and B starports have the capacity to install and calibrate them.

Damn, I'm getting design ideas.
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Re: High Efficiency Batteries for Jump

Postby Moppy » Mon Apr 22, 2019 10:06 pm

I've seen the diagrams on old Traveller books. Where are the hydrogen bubble emitters?
l
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Re: High Efficiency Batteries for Jump

Postby Reynard » Mon Apr 22, 2019 10:12 pm

Those honking huge 'exhaust ports' aft of a ship. The drive creates an expanding field around the ship as hydrogen is pumped out and trapped within the field.
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Re: High Efficiency Batteries for Jump

Postby AnotherDilbert » Mon Apr 22, 2019 10:17 pm

Reynard wrote: OH, OH, OH! Epiphany (a moment of sudden revelation or insight) kicks me and yes, you can't recharge a collector system from another source, you already have a big advantage being able to get 'free' fuel at the cost of a little more time.
We can probably get around that with a breakaway design. Place the Collector in a Breakaway section that can be exchanged for a charged Collector section when needed...


Edit:
In MgT that is. T5 has no breakaway sections, but Pods that can probably fill the same role?
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Re: High Efficiency Batteries for Jump

Postby BigDogsRunning » Tue Apr 23, 2019 1:29 am

You could also, by monkeying with the economics a little bit, have jump-bubble based technologies for civilian markets, much more expensive, and maintenance intensive jump-grids, and collector technologies co-existing in the same universe. Three different ways to solve the problem, used by different markets.

Civilian vessels use Jump-Bubble based technology. If you reduce the cost a little bit, it makes interstellar trade more economical.

Military vessels might want to use jump-bubble based tech, simply because it's less damage sensitive. But grid-based technology for some special purpose vehicles.

Scout vessels, and tankers used to provision deep space fuel dumps might use collector based technologies.

There are a few other possibilities as well.
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Re: High Efficiency Batteries for Jump

Postby Reynard » Tue Apr 23, 2019 2:31 am

Collector advantage = "sweeping up exotic particles captured by a canopy and removing the need to carry separate fuel for the jump drive" plus "consume 1% of the ship’s tonnage multiplied
by the maximum jump number its drive is capable of, plus 5 tons". So no jump fuel needed for the addition of the collector, a big plus.

Collector disadvantage = "It takes a week of normal space travel to fully charge an accumulator, and accumulators will not work at all in jump space, in an atmosphere or on a ship expending thrust".

If you don't have a regular issue with being a sitting duck while recharging the drive capacitors, there you are. I think I need to take several iconic ships and create a collector version.
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Re: High Efficiency Batteries for Jump

Postby BigDogsRunning » Tue Apr 23, 2019 4:02 am

Sitting quietly for a week would work fine for a scout, or military recon vessel. Jump into the outer system, sit quietly for a week gathering data, then microjump a third of the way around the ecliptic, rinse/repeat.

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