High Efficiency Batteries for Jump

Discuss the Traveller RPG and its many settings
Sigtrygg
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Re: High Efficiency Batteries for Jump

Postby Sigtrygg » Fri Apr 19, 2019 7:57 pm

Collector based drives, the Annic Nova, and antimatter powered jump drives do not require hydrogen...
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Re: High Efficiency Batteries for Jump

Postby AnotherDilbert » Fri Apr 19, 2019 8:06 pm

Sigtrygg wrote: antimatter powered jump drives
collector powered jump drives
Collectors are an exception, but not Imperial tech as far as I know.

Who says antimatter powered ships don't need jump fuel? MT only says that extreme tech jump drives need less fuel, but they still require jump fuel in addition to the power plant.
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Re: High Efficiency Batteries for Jump

Postby Sigtrygg » Fri Apr 19, 2019 8:25 pm

Collector based rift ship in Great Rift.

MT and T5 antimatter drives do not require hydrogen fuel for jump drives, they consume an antimatter pod - the hydrogen jump bubble is pure fanon made wooly canon by authors who didn't do their homework.
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Re: High Efficiency Batteries for Jump

Postby Condottiere » Fri Apr 19, 2019 8:36 pm

Presumably, you can still substitute a lanthanum grid based solution.
Sigtrygg
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Re: High Efficiency Batteries for Jump

Postby Sigtrygg » Fri Apr 19, 2019 9:31 pm

Lanthanum coils please :)
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Re: High Efficiency Batteries for Jump

Postby AnotherDilbert » Fri Apr 19, 2019 9:46 pm

Sigtrygg wrote: Collector based rift ship in Great Rift.
Is that designed and built by an Imperial shipyard, or is it a unique alien artefact like the Annic Nova?

Sigtrygg wrote: MT and T5 antimatter drives do not require hydrogen fuel for jump drives, they consume an antimatter pod - ...
Ah, yes, I found it in T5.09, cleverly hidden away from the Jump Drive specifications.

In MT I see no signs of AM powered jumps, both RM p58-59 and p65 seems to insist that jump drives requires jump fuel (presumably hydrogen) separate from power plant fuel.

Sigtrygg wrote: ... - the hydrogen jump bubble is pure fanon made wooly canon by authors who didn't do their homework.
With "enough" energy available from the AM power plant hydrogen could be synthesised, if necessary?
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Re: High Efficiency Batteries for Jump

Postby Reynard » Fri Apr 19, 2019 11:18 pm

This issue I see is you have batteries that can be recharged elsewhere as mentioned for the x-boat description and have the power for a jump (The jump drive is powered by the battery) plus a full tank that also can do exactly the same thing. What is the reason to have both? If you can jump just using the batteries alone, is there need for a hydrogen source as well?
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Re: High Efficiency Batteries for Jump

Postby AndrewW » Fri Apr 19, 2019 11:34 pm

Reynard wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 11:18 pm
This issue I see is you have batteries that can be recharged elsewhere as mentioned for the x-boat description and have the power for a jump (The jump drive is powered by the battery) plus a full tank that also can do exactly the same thing. What is the reason to have both? If you can jump just using the batteries alone, is there need for a hydrogen source as well?
Jump drives require both the fuel and enough power.
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Re: High Efficiency Batteries for Jump

Postby Sigtrygg » Fri Apr 19, 2019 11:48 pm

Collector powered drives don't - see your own rules and Great Rift, namely the Zarelinung class TL15 collector powered jump ship.
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Re: High Efficiency Batteries for Jump

Postby Reynard » Sat Apr 20, 2019 12:52 am

"Jump drives require both the fuel and enough power."

Oh wait, as I read this I ran the design through my head again and I see now. The x-boat has a fusion reactor only big enough to run basic ship power only, no jump or maneuver and avoids any system that need power. The tender charges the batteries for jump power and the jump fuel is entirely for the bubble. Got it.

Still must look at some station dependent vessel designs with smaller fusion plants and no maneuver for that very reason.
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Re: High Efficiency Batteries for Jump

Postby AnotherDilbert » Sat Apr 20, 2019 6:43 am

Reynard wrote: The tender charges the batteries for jump power and the jump fuel is entirely for the bubble.
I see no reason to assume that the jump fuel is ONLY for blowing up the jump bubble.

Jump has always been about energy, and the jump fuel used to generate that energy, at least in part. The required power from the power plant is just to jump-start the process, or possibly just represent that the power plant is operated in another mode to supply the vast energy needed for jump.

The MgT statements about the jump-bubble is in no way incompatible with:
JTAS#24, p36 wrote:When the jump drive is activated, a large store of fuel is fed through the ship power plant to create the energy necessary for the jump drive. In the interests of rapid energy generation, the power plant does not work at full efficiency, and some of the fuel is lost in carrying off fusion by-products, and in cooling the system. At the end of a very brief period (less than a few minutes), the jump drive capacitors have been charged to capacity. Under computer control, the energy is then fed into appropriate sections of the jump drive and jump begins.
Note that not all hydrogen is converted to energy, but some is expelled (possibly into the bubble).


You could just as well say that the battery is for powering the ship's other systems for a brief time, while the power plant is completely devoted to the jump drive.
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Re: High Efficiency Batteries for Jump

Postby Subzero001 » Sun Apr 21, 2019 5:09 am

Hello all,

My two credits worth, I understand that the normal "Imperium" way of using the jump drive is to use hydrogen as a fuel source burned in the power plant and to provide a slippery bubble for the ship to slip into the temporary pocket universe. But now we have a hybrid type ship that can use ether or if the battery or other power source has the required "exotic particles" in essence ripping a hole into the pocket universe covering the ship with "exotic particles" and shoving it inside. From (1e) I seem to remember a black globe device can also make the jump drive function without hydrogen fuel present for a bubble as well I guess the "exotic particles" come into play. So in proven theory we could charge the "High Efficiency Battery's" in place of the required load of hydrogen for the jump drive as long as the "exotic particles" are present as well to make the required jump possible. If you look back at the "battletech universe" which is based like traveller it uses a collector to charge its battery/capacitors to jump and has a high yield battery that would allow a second immediate jump "exotic particles" again I guess :shock: if a character or group for instance with some money opens a minor corporation and sets up a network of collectors on a small to mid size trade route to provide jump pod "pilot" tug units for trade use that uses a breakaway type collector/battery/jump ship hull then that company would be making money hand over fist and would change the "normal" of a fuel based starship required to jump to a hybrid that can use ether or for the future at a great savings of space, time and profit made. similar to how we are trying now a days to get away from fossil fuels to a renewable power for our vehicles.

Thank you for your time these were my thoughts I took away from this online conversation.
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Re: High Efficiency Batteries for Jump

Postby AnotherDilbert » Sun Apr 21, 2019 7:21 am

Subzero001 wrote: From (1e) I seem to remember a black globe device can also make the jump drive function without hydrogen fuel present for a bubble as well I guess the "exotic particles" come into play.
I don't think MgT1 HG said anything about jumping and Black Globes, but the original HG'80 said:
HG'80, p43 wrote:If a ship absorbs enough energy to make a jump, and is supplied with sufficient fuel, it may jump at the end of the turn.
As always you need both available power and fuel to jump.
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Re: High Efficiency Batteries for Jump

Postby Sigtrygg » Sun Apr 21, 2019 10:07 am

You keep saying as always - and as usual I will point out that collector and antimatter powered drives do not need hydrogen. :)

MT SoM mentioned the jump drive forming a bubble of normal space - fanon filled in the rest and future authors jumped on the hydrogen bubble, which is not the case for CT MWM Jumpspace article, MT, TNE, GT, T5.

So we have the statement in HG80 which is specific to that rule set only, the T4 and MgT incorrect fanon based hydrogen bubble which is invalidated by collector equipped drives and antimatter powered drives.

I eagerly await the MgT JTAS reprint of the MWM article to see if I can then point out he is either invalidating collector based drives or the concept of the hydrogen filled bubble - they are mutually incompatible.
Last edited by Sigtrygg on Sun Apr 21, 2019 10:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
Sigtrygg
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Re: High Efficiency Batteries for Jump

Postby Sigtrygg » Sun Apr 21, 2019 10:13 am

I've always handwaved the HG 80 statement to refer to the pre-charge you need to spend one or two turns power output on. You then dump an awful lot of jump fuel through the overdrive reactor as mentioned in MWM's article. Charging the jump capacitors with the black globe only fulfils the first part of the jump procedure - instead of using one or two turns of power plant output to charge the jump drive the absorbed energy from the black globe does the job, once again showing that EPs can be transferred relatively easily between ship systems.
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Re: High Efficiency Batteries for Jump

Postby Condottiere » Sun Apr 21, 2019 10:23 am

I understand the game mechanics reason for the hydrogen flush, but not the canonical physics behind it.
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Re: High Efficiency Batteries for Jump

Postby Moppy » Sun Apr 21, 2019 12:07 pm

I never realised jump bubbles were basically inflatable balloons.

i notice an xboat can jump a 300 ton cargo module one parsec and costs ~ 30 MCr

the fat trader costs ~ 80 MCr and jumps only 250 tons of cargo & staterooms the same distance

x-boats are very strange and exceptional craft
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Re: High Efficiency Batteries for Jump

Postby Sigtrygg » Sun Apr 21, 2019 12:11 pm

This is how MWM describes it:
When the jump drive is activated, a large store of fuel is fed through the ship power plant to create the energy necessary for the jump drive. In the interests of rapid energy generation, the power plant does not work at full efficiency, and some of the fuel is lost in carrying off fusion by-products, and in cooling the system. At the end of a very brief period (less than a few minutes), the jump drive capacitors have been charged to capacity. Under computer control, the energy is then fed into appropriate sections of the jump drive and jump begins.
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Re: High Efficiency Batteries for Jump

Postby AnotherDilbert » Sun Apr 21, 2019 12:50 pm

Sigtrygg wrote: You keep saying as always - and as usual I will point out that collector and antimatter powered drives do not need hydrogen. :)
T5 AM drives still need jump fuel in the form of AM pods in addition to power from the PP.

MgT Collector powered jump drives still need jump fuel in the form of "exotic particles captured by a canopy" in addition to power from the PP.

So, yes, as always the jump drive needs fuel in addition to power from the PP.
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Re: High Efficiency Batteries for Jump

Postby Sigtrygg » Sun Apr 21, 2019 1:42 pm

Sorry, since you want to be pedantic, they don't need hydrogen fuel and therefore do not use hydrogen to create a hydrogen filled jump bubble :)

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